I think it's very true. Most of our differences come from environment and upbringing. I think it's sad that there are people male and female who spend so much of their time hating half of the human race. There are bigger problems in the world.
"The largest gender differences are in the domain of motor performance (such as throwing velocity and distance). A second area is sexuality, particularly in reported masturbation activity, and attitudes about casual and uncommitted relationships. Although much publicity has been given to gender differences in aggression, the differences are only moderate. Furthermore "relational" aggression which has been publicized as more common among girls shows no consistent gender difference."
Seems Hyde's "big two" are the BIG TWO: strength and physical ability (which typically includes spatial coordination) neatly, and deceptively packed as motor performance and (drum roll please…) SEXUALITY (who’d have guessed that would be important?), including attitude on relationships. These are the two chasms that gender-feminists, try as they might, can not bridge, hide nor eliminate. Men and woman ARE fundamentally different in these two most important areas.
When women try to act more like men, it does not tend to work out as well for them as they’d like to believe, and, despite much wailing and gnashing of teeth, men are just bigger, stronger, faster, and more coordinated than women (comparing averages, of course). It’s not a gender-construct, nor any great effort by the evil Patriarchy to hold women down.
Yes, men and women tend to have roughly equal intelligence (in terms of raw measure). But, just having the mental ability is not the same thing as applying it in useful ways.
I work in scientific research and my wife is an attorney. Both of these professions allow for appropriately intelligent people to have essentially equal access (brain power jobs, not brawn). Yet, in observing the relatively small populations I see in each filed, while it is clear that women are perfectly capable and competent, women seem to suffer more (and more frequent) “issues” and seem to mess up their personal lives to a greater extent than do men.
Sometimes brain power alone isn’t enough. Only a subset of women who have the brain-power end up succeeding to the same levels as men (this despite Herculean efforts to “correct” the supposed imbalance). Even as men as systematically disadvantaged, the best and brightest still out-perform their female counter-parts. I’m not meaning to be sexist, just pointing out the inescapable reality. Despite being so much alike (in raw mental ability), outcomes still favor men.
Put this on top of the BIG TWO, and you are left with substantial (and easily observable) differences between men and women as classes.
Thanks for bringing it into the forum. Your own observations however, I object to. I will leave most of it alone as I can predict it going around in circles, this statement in particular irked me though...
"Put this on top of the BIG TWO, and you are left with substantial (and easily observable) differences between men and women as classes."
I think that is the point of the article, to not view genders as classes. Yes I think everyone understands men are built physically stronger then women, but is that something to base a class mentality on?
Sorry I deleted your comment by mistake, I got confused because you keep sending me 3 or 4 copies of it. Please make it again you raised some interesting points.
[Sorry about multiple posts, Blogger kept giving me a unavailable error, leading me to believe that my comments had not made it through. If I wasn't so busy right now, I'd try to rework it a bit]
AFOTC - ”I think that is the point of the article, to not view genders as classes. Yes I think everyone understands men are built physically stronger then women, but is that something to base a class mentality on?”
Frankly, I’m not quite sure where you see this idea coming out in the Psychology Today review of Hyde’s work you linked (the link to Hyde’s Journal article - http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp606581.pdf - doesn’t work).
I see it as being liitle different for the long-running feminist meta-narrative that men need to become more like women, eschewing their natural masculinity, in order for their to be gender equity. As I see it, the review (at least) essentially glosses over that the BIG TWO areas of gender difference even exist – pretending that since men and women are more alike in the balance of a larger number of other measures, that there is essentially “no difference”. I’d point out his statement from that review:
It seems to be implying that the only real differences are those we’ve come to (mistakenly) believe exist. While it doesn’t specifically state it, it quite obvious that the point is to over-look any real differences that exist outside of a system of belief in them. And, if we focus on the measures where men and women are closer, we’d see more gender-equity.
Of course, in order to get to the gender equity that this implies, men will need to do away with their masculine “advantages”. But, this is certainly not a new idea amongst feminists – they been saying it for decades now.
While you call yourself a Feminist I’m beginning to suspect that you haven’t actually read/studied much of what your feminist fore-sisters have said. It’s not me that started the notion of men and women as separate classes – that was the work of feminists, who specifically focused on the gender differences, particularly those where men’s masculine natures were perceived to cause imbalance and injustice.
Perhaps you’d care to take a glance at the S.C.U.M. manifesto fro some real feminist guidance:
Yes, there are some serious misogynists amongst the ranks of MRA’s, who truly hate women. Yet, even they don’t publish notions equal to the likes killing-off 90% of all men or castrating baby boys to remove their masculinity, and make them more like women – now, do you?
What I find odd is that, when pressed, a lot of self-described feminists will remark that they don’t really believe in the radical ideas of their fore-sisters – yet, they will almost never actually denounce even the most hateful of the feminist-agenda’s. I wonder why that is?
It’s seems unfortunate that a bright young women like yourself should chose to identify yourself with a movement that, at is core, is little more than an anti-male hate movement. It’s the feminist leaders who spewed much of the hate that make it clear to me that men DO NOT need to act in any way more like feminist women, but rather that feminists should learn to act more like (most) MRA’s in seeking equity rather than dis-empowerment, displacement, and destruction of the other gender.
Who knows, maybe you’ll one day read more of the core tenant of feminism and realize that you should join with us?
"it quite obvious that the point is to over-look any real differences that exist outside of a system of belief in them. And, if we focus on the measures where men and women are closer, we’d see more gender-equity."
I actually agree with that point the article makes, we all know men are physically stronger. Why bring attention to it? Who really cares? I don't.
Sorry about my mistaken comment about you bringing an article in before, I get confused at 4am haha.
"While you call yourself a Feminist I’m beginning to suspect that you haven’t actually read/studied much of what your feminist fore-sisters have said."
*sigh* please read the blog entry where we discuss what it means to be a feminist. I won't get into this debate again.
"It’s not me that started the notion of men and women as separate classes – that was the work of feminists, who specifically focused on the gender differences, particularly those where men’s masculine natures were perceived to cause imbalance and injustice. "
Firstly, the notion of gender class existed before feminism, you don't need someone to stop and say "look there's a class system" for there to in fact be a class system. Secondly you use the term "perceived" are you suggesting there never was any injustice?
"What I find odd is that, when pressed, a lot of self-described feminists will remark that they don’t really believe in the radical ideas of their fore-sisters – yet, they will almost never actually denounce even the most hateful of the feminist-agenda’s. I wonder why that is?"
I think I need an example or two before I can properly comment on that.
"It’s seems unfortunate that a bright young women like yourself should chose to identify yourself with a movement that, at is core, is little more than an anti-male hate movement."
Again I will say I disagree with this sentiment, please read through previous blog entries.
"Who knows, maybe you’ll one day read more of the core tenant of feminism and realize that you should join with us? "
I read the article you sent me. It is quite obviously misogynistic and upon reading the comments my thoughts were further confirmed. Misogyny that attracts misogynistic people. Sorry never going to be signing on board with such blatant sexism.
Before I got crucified for saying that and being a feminist, first I challenge you to identify something I have said as being an example of a view of misandry.
@slwerner:"It’s not me that started the notion of men and women as separate classes – that was the work of feminists, who specifically focused on the gender differences, particularly those where men’s masculine natures were perceived to cause imbalance and injustice."
sl, seriously? The rise of feminism (which, btw, is not some recent American phenomenon, but has been around in some form since the beginning of time...well, okay, humans) is in REACTION to accepted roles and classes put forth by men historically. The entire idea of class in regards to gender, with males being seen as "the superior species," can be seen reflected in literature going back thousands of years. I think the bible even has a comment or two on the topic. I give you that the recent brand of feminism flipped it around too quickly for many folks to be comfortable with and went too far in certain areas, but let's not pretend that viewing women as "other" "lesser" "weaker"(not just physically) is an historical male-focused viewpoint. Which is NOT to say that women didn't buy into it, support it, promote it, and benefit from it in certain ways. But it ain't a female-created thang.
I actually disagree that the article is misogynistic (other than it is male-centered), but it is fallacious in a number of ways. It's outlining a male paradigm, which is a re-frame of parts of the radical feminist concept. I find the article fascinating on one level as if you simply substitute the words male/masculine, etc. with their gender counterparts, you have a standard wo-manifesto (hee hee) that was parried about in the early part of the current feminist movement. Same ideas re-tooled. Which isn't surprising, as EVERY successful social movement follows similar principles. I do think the women-oppressing-men narrative is a hard one to sell though without a complete revamping of modern social consciousness. Overall, the focus is harmful to people just as the radical feminist notions are.
I was curious about one phrase and would like to hear more from those who know: "We recognize “equality”, rightly, as a fallacy incompatible with reality (Battle Of The Sexes/Sexual Conflict)."
What exactly does this mean because it doesn't make sense as it stands? I did read the rest of that paragraph, so if it's as simple as a bad definition, that's fine. Just wondered if there was more.
@Cassie: "I think it is just a fancy way of saying gender equality will never happen."
It reads more insidious than that to me. That those men who sign onto this philosophy will actively combat equality. The definition given in the article is different than how the sentence by itself reads.
Blogging question: how do you all put your quotes in italics?
Social Worker - ”The entire idea of class in regards to gender, with males being seen as "the superior species," can be seen reflected in literature going back thousands of years. “
Hum? You might be right, given the way that through all recorded history it's been the women who taken on the role of protecting the menfolk, willing sacrificing their lives so that their men would have a chance to live on. And, of course, it's always been poor young women who were conscripted to go off to be the cannon-fodder of war. Geez! How could I have for gotten something that important, and so demonstrative of which gender has always been considered more important.
Well, enough snarking at you. Still, what you fail to recognize it that socio-economic and political class(as well as race) have always been much, much more the dividers amongst people. Yes, of course, the men at the top of the heap were seen a more valuable than women, but women of higher socio-economic class were certainly valued far about the men of the working and peasant classes.
What I was referring to twas the modern construct of all men (as a class) being seen as the oppressors of all women (as a class), and the pitting of the genders against one another – which IS the handiwork of Feminism. You demonstrated the effect of their efforts nicely when you looked back over history and picked out the examples of the privilege of select men and extrapolated it onto all men as a class.
It's also why ideas such as all men being potential rapists and abusers is so popular amongst feminists – it's the idea of seeing all men as being no different than the worst of men. It makes it seem more reasonable to therefore look at the top of the corporate world, and use male dominance therein to justify the active discrimination against men such as we now see in terms of college admission and financial aid.
By seeing all men as a unified class, the idea that the poor farm kid who's worked hard to earn a chance to go to college and build a better life for his family has unjustly benefits by virtue of being a man; and that some young women from a upper-middle income family is therefore more deserving (despite having more actual advantages in life, and likely having been less studious – her life of parting and shopping making her a more “well rounded” person, after all).
One of my biggest gripes with feminism is that it specifically all women as oppressed, and all men as oppressors; without due regard to the reality of individual circumstances.
"One of my biggest gripes with feminism is that it specifically all women as oppressed, and all men as oppressors; without due regard to the reality of individual circumstances. "
I have noticed that kind of thinking on some feminist sites. I challenge it and end up getting attacked. It is interesting.
I would just like to clarify: In feminist jargon, what can come across as "all women are oppressed and all men are oppressors" just means that women as a group are oppressed, and that men as a group tend to be the ones doing the oppressing.
There is merit in equating living in the Patriarchy to living in the Matrix, and the following quote: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.—Morpheus
Deviant One - "Women as a group are oppressed, and men as a group tend to be the ones who *benefit* from that oppressing."
I'm going to have to call BS on this. There are very few men oppressing anyone, and very few women suffering any real oppression.
As feminists always have to do, you have to view men collectively as a class so as to smear all men with the misdeeds of a very few.
And, in reality, women in modern Western countries are hardly oppressed (as a class).
Even the "Wage Gap" narrows to a few cents when correcting for relevant considerations such as level of education and the length of time (years) a person has been working.
Plus, when researchers “drill-down” and do more apples-to-apples comparisons, there are numerous job categories where women are paid more on average than are men.
So, in the end, it is absolutely necessary that all working men be lumped into a single class – including the few-in-number but very high-in-pay CEO-types and professional athletes, along with the greater number of men who’ve worked many years to get to top-level pay so that the supposed “Wage Gap” can still be claimed (how it can be done with a straight face completely escapes me).
It’s basically the same thing that is done so as to smear all men with the crimes committed by a relative few. And, of course, if women are to be seen as oppressed, they must be viewed as a class so that the vast majority of women who enjoy substantial advantage, and who have few fears, can still be seen as being “oppressed” based on what a relative few unfortunate women must endure.
But, Hell, I’ll play along: Why don’t you make a list of the ways in which women are being oppressed (and how all men benefit)?
Perhaps I can then respond with a list enumerating the many ways men & boys are disadvantaged, and the ways men ARE being oppressed – especially via the Anti-Family Courts. We can play a game of “Who has it worse, men or women”. Sounds like fun.
"And, in reality, women in modern Western countries are hardly oppressed (as a class)."
If as a comparison to muslim countries then I agree, however those countries tend to be more biased in a lot of ways.
Therefore what you are saying amounts to we shouldn't worry about our problems because other people have it worse. I have never found that rationale to be particularly helpful or relevant.
"Perhaps I can then respond with a list enumerating the many ways men & boys are disadvantaged, and the ways men ARE being oppressed – especially via the Anti-Family Courts. We can play a game of “Who has it worse, men or women”. "
Please don't, I want to continue real debate rather then start a pissing contest.
Also keep in mind I am Australian, a lot of the family court legislature isn't particularly relevant to my country.
”Please don't, I want to continue real debate rather then start a pissing contest.”
In reality, I’d rather not do it myself. I’m mostly just reacting to the non-sense claim that ”Women as a group are oppressed, and men as a group tend to be the ones who *benefit* from that oppressing.”
I’d agree that in the Islamic World (and most of the Third World) women do have it much worse. But, Australia is part of the so-called Anglosphere, and of so-called Western society, wherein women (as a class) have it rather well.
It’s pretty easy to see that women enjoy a number of advantages (over men), so this blather about being “oppressed” just seems like empty feminist rhetoric and a system of false beliefs which many feminist simply take a Gospel Truth and dare not question.
While it seems that Deviant One has bought into the “oppression” meme, I get the impression that you have not. Far better than a pissing contest, what I’d like to hear are your thoughts on the idea that women as a class are oppressed and that men as a class are benefiting for this oppression of women.
"It’s pretty easy to see that women enjoy a number of advantages (over men), so this blather about being “oppressed” just seems like empty feminist rhetoric and a system of false beliefs which many feminist simply take a Gospel Truth and dare not question."
It is hard to respond to that without examples.
"Far better than a pissing contest, what I’d like to hear are your thoughts on the idea that women as a class are oppressed and that men as a class are benefiting for this oppression of women."
That is an interesting question, I would like some time to think about it, I will get back to you soon.
Cassie - "It is hard to respond to that without examples."
Ah, but examples would mean posting that list to which you remarked, "Please Don't"
But how about just a couple to get started with:
Women are give preference in college admission over men, and now represent over 60% of college students.
There are a large number of Scholarships and grants available only to women (Frankly, both my wife, and my two daughters have benefited), while there are no such resources available only to men (my son will be thus disadvantaged when he is ready to go to college).
Neither of those is particularly controversial, given that the empirical evidence is so very obvious, and most people recognize both as realities.
Cassie - "Is it possible to provide any Australian examples? (being that I am Aussie)"
Actually, I was hoping that Deviant One would supply some examples of the supposed oppression that women (as a class) suffer at the hands of the men (who benefit as a class). I've seen some rather outlandish claims about just what constitutes "oppression". But, then again, the US is full of some rather spoiled bratty women (I've often gotten the idea that there isn't so much of an "entitled princess" syndrome amongst Aussie women, but I have no definitive information).
I didn't think the two examples I gave were at all argumentative - especially as they are already widely acknowledged (at least in the US). I wonder if the situation isn't a bit the same throughout the entire Anglosphere. I suspect you are in a much better position to know what’s happening in your country.
But, by way of further example, here in the US we’ve been treated to a steady stream of triumphant stories about how women are out achieving men in education, and recently have over-taken men in the workforce – hardly evidence of women being “oppressed”, BTW – thus, I’d imagine if the same were going on in Australia, there would have been news accounts that you might have seen.
I am unaware of women here being given additional consideration in attending tertiary education institutions. We do however give Aboriginal people preference, which I support.
I have never heard of women here boasting about being better then men in terms of the workforce. Not that I am one to watch the news, or pay attention to such absurdity if it did come on.
If you could keep thinking and perhaps come up with an example I can relate to more that would be appreciated. In the meantime I will research a bit on these topics and see if I can't form some opinions.
As to an example of how women are still oppressed? HOw about the wage gap? How about victim shaming and treatment in rape and DV cases? How about the RAPE CULTURE we, and yes this INCLUDES THE U.S. and it includes men, live in? How about being denied the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy and the dignity to exert that right?
All of these are realities, and all of these benefit the "status quo", which is the Patriarchy, and they happen even in "enlightened Western countries", no matter how little you want to hear of it. These are just a few examples, there are many more.
Also, please note that there is a huge distinction between men and women as a group and individuals. I know many individual men that are hurt by the rape culture, for example, but it is still institutionalized oppression of women.
As for the colleges thing, I am going to ask for your evidence, since I, too, don't live in the US.
Deviant One - "HOw about the wage gap? How about victim shaming and treatment in rape and DV cases? How about the RAPE CULTURE we, and yes this INCLUDES THE U.S. and it includes men, live in? How about being denied the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy and the dignity to exert that right?"
Really!? The same tired, and easily refuted shallow BS we'd been force-fed for decades now? That's the best you can possibly do?
Of course, I’ll never convince you, as you desperately cling to these as articles of faith. But, as further, and more accurate research has been applied, it has been realized that the wage gap is much, much smaller than the data from two decades ago suggests. In fact, when comparing some occupations, controlling experience, it has been shown that women actually out-earn men.
There is no “Rape Culture”. Throughout the Western World, rape as treated as the most serious of crimes, nearly equal to murder. Vast sums of money are spent on rape prevent, on special sex-crime police units, and on specialized prosecution for such crimes. Boy’s and young men are bombarded for an early age about the proper way to treat women and girls. Rape, real rape, is simply not tolerated. But, of course, the belief that it is tolerated, and even encouraged, is fundamental to extreme gender-feminist doctrine. So, you basically have no choice but to convince yourself of it, lack of any real evidence (not to mention copious evidence to the contrary) be damned!
Since you seen to have missed it, Rape Shield Laws are widely used to protect a woman who claims of have been raped (even those who are simply lying about it in an estimated 40% of reported cases). The real shaming happens to men accused, even those being falsely accused. They have their names released to the press, they find themselves scorned by those around them, they loose their jobs, some are attack, and a few are even killed – all based on no more than the accusation of a woman. Society, especially men, take the crime of rape that seriously.
Women who claim to have been raped are provided with substantial assistance, including counseling, special victim advocates to help them through the entire legal process, and even generous financial assistance. All of this is available even to those women who simply comes to regret the consensual sex she engaged in, and wished to recast it as rape to salvage her reputation or cover for her infidelity to another. Poor treatment, my ass!
And you cannot be serious about shaming treatment in DV. A woman need only contend that she “feels” threatened to see that the man is arrested and/or physically removed for her presence. And, like be accused of rape, the mark of shame absolutely accrues to him, and certainly not her.
And, what of this vague ”BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy”? You mean like the right to have an abortion if she feels like it? Or, make the guy pay if she doesn’t? Just what do you mean her?
I suspect you have to be vague, because any attempt at specific examples would leave them as easily demolished as your other pathetic claims.
Please slwerner, I don't want to prevent your posts from going through, but insults like these are not going to be tolerated on my blog. It is pointless and rude, please be respectful. It isn't useful in debate and in my opinion inhibits it.
As for your claims of women having it better ('entitled princesses', really! Lucky you're not misogynistic, eh?) not being as oppressed and basically crying, "what about the menz"?, here's a Great Article for you, written by a man, about that very issue.
"Rape, real rape, is simply not tolerated. But, of course, the belief that it is tolerated, and even encouraged, is fundamental to extreme gender-feminist doctrine."
I dislike this term, do you buy into the doctrine of gray rape or date rape?
Also please note that the rape shield law doesn't exist in my country and many more I am sure.
I quickly hit wiki to find out what it means, I am not one to trust wiki too much, but I will research up on it more later. Wiki says it is the law to prevent bringing up the accusers past and to protect them from being publically named. Is there anything more to it? If that is it all it involves then I fully agree with it. I don't need the fact I have had sex or rape sex brought into a rape trial, it is irrelevant.
"The real shaming happens to men accused, even those being falsely accused. "
This is a flawed statement to me, it implies there is no shame to being raped, which absolutely absurd. I struggled with the shame for years (and still do).
While I feel for the men falsely accused of rape, I don't have an issue with convicted rapists being publically named.
"Women who claim to have been raped are provided with substantial assistance, including counseling, special victim advocates to help them through the entire legal process, and even generous financial assistance."
You say this like it is a big accomplishment...and it is, isn't that sad, that we didn't think it worthwhile looking after people who had suffered from this crime?
"And you cannot be serious about shaming treatment in DV. A woman need only contend that she “feels” threatened to see that the man is arrested and/or physically removed for her presence. And, like be accused of rape, the mark of shame absolutely accrues to him, and certainly not her. "
Is this under the VAWA law, I have heard people talkiing about? If so, again we don't have this in Australia.
"And, what of this vague ”BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy”? You mean like the right to have an abortion if she feels like it? Or, make the guy pay if she doesn’t? Just what do you mean her?"
I support both these laws.
I brought up the fact that those laws are american (and canadian) based because I don't think deviant one is American.
Meaning you are on two different battlegrounds here, you both may need to find some common ground.
Cassie - ”I dislike this term, do you buy into the doctrine of gray rape or date rape?”
But, this is not the type of rape that is supposedly being used and encouraged in order to oppress women. I believe that it happens, and I believe those that force women into having sex need to be punished. But, as I’m sure you noticed in the False Rape Society blog, there are also many instances wherein a women simply regrets the consensual sex she has engaged in, and decides to cry rape to cover for her own poor decisions. Notice the striking number of instance where women admit to having falsely claimed to have been raped when their own infidelities were in jeopardy of being discovered.
My over-arching point was that rape simply is not a tool being actively used by men (as a class) to oppress women (as a class). There are some men who are rapists. They are truly evil men, who society right scorn. But, there are also women who rape. Lesbian rape is reported to be seldom reported, although quite common. But, as Eve Ensler contends, that’s “good rape”.
As too the Rape Shield Laws, you have hit he basics. As I’ve previously noted, my wife is a prosecutor, and although rape is a particularly common crime, she has tried a number of rape cases (including one that nearly went to trial before the accuser admit that she’d been lying all along). So, while it may surprise you to know, I do favor the Basic Rape Shield Laws. They do protect victim identities, and exclude information which is not germane to the issue of whether or not the alleged crime has occurred (a woman may be a long-time prostitute, but if she was forced against her will, it’s still rape).
Cassie - ”This is a flawed statement to me, it implies there is no shame to being raped, which absolutely absurd. I struggled with the shame for years (and still do).”
I did not mean to imply that raped women do not feel shame. I know that they do, often very deeply. I do feel for women like you who have suffered.
But, what Deviant One seemed to be rather obviously implying was that rape victims were treated shamefully (i.e. call sluts, and blamed for bringing it upon themselves). There might be some instances of such (personally, the only times I’ve witnessed it happen, it came from other women, not men, BTW), there is certainly no systematic effort to shame women. To the contrary (here, anyway), they are given free counseling, financial assistance, and have victims advocates at their disposal through the legal process. Every effort is made to comfort and reassure them (even those who turn out to have been lying).
The broader point is that her point about the supposed shaming of rape victims isn’t happening, but when men are named as rapists, they certainly are.
Cassie - ” You say this like it is a big accomplishment...and it is, isn't that sad, that we didn't think it worthwhile looking after people who had suffered from this crime?”
Actually, I say it in order to counter the idea put forth that the supposed Patriarchy is using rape to oppress. It was to demonstrate how society actually treats rape victims. And, BTW, I know a number of the counselors and victim advocates personally. I fully support giving aid and comfort to those who’ve been victimized. I do however refute the notion that we don’t care about he victims.
Cassie - ”… again we don't have this in Australia.”
While this is a valid concern, I’d counter that for Deviant One’s claims to hold true, they must be true through the Western World.
Deviant One - ”All of these are realities, and all of these benefit the "status quo", which is the Patriarchy, and they happen even in "enlightened Western countries"
I’ll try to be more civil, but these beliefs of hers, no matter how deeply she may hold them, are examples of where feminist doctrine ought to be open to criticisms and critical review.
Edited to add: I posted my previous comment for moderation before slwerner replied, so here's my reply to his:
I love how you, a man, can come here and tell us what women actually feel, go through and experience in traumatic and real situations like rape and DV.
And then, to add to the chuckles, your views are IN DIRECT CONTRAST with peer-reviewed, studies done, research published in accredited journals etc.
I also find it very interesting that you espouse all kinds of "facts" and "figures" and "recent studies done" "that has shown" all kinds of things, but we get nary a link from you.
But you know what I find most interesting of all?
That you didn't ask ME to back up MY claims.
This tells me that for you, it's not about debate, it's just about you being right because you are a male; and getting the "Gotcha", putting those damn entitled princesses (i.e. all women) in their place.
I am enjoying your posts, your point of view and the links you provide, but as when Slwerner was being rude I feel like I have to ask you to simmer down a little with the insults. I understand the need to argue back when insulted but the score is even now, lets get back to keeping it civil shall we? I would appreciate it
"But, this is not the type of rape that is supposedly being used and encouraged in order to oppress women."
so you do buy into it. The opposite of date rape always seems to be "real rape". That is in my opinion quite dreadful. To sing an old tune, not being dragged kicking and screaming into an ally at knifepoint doesn't make it a lesser rape.
"But, this is not the type of rape that is supposedly being used and encouraged in order to oppress women."
I will the part where you use "Type" of rape, because I have made my views there quite clear. Fast forward to the point that rape is being used to oppress women. I don't know how deviantone meant it, but personally I see it as a product of oppression rather then an action of oppression. Also in regards to rape culture, well I haven't formed concrete opinions on this yet, I do 100% think that our society romanticises sexual assault and as a consequence encourage it as normal to heterosexual male, which I think is wrong to both men and women.
"There are some men who are rapists. They are truly evil men, who society right scorn."
I don't believe in evil.
"But, what Deviant One seemed to be rather obviously implying was that rape victims were treated shamefully (i.e. call sluts, and blamed for bringing it upon themselves). "
I back deviantone up on this one, there is definitely stigma surrounding being a rape victim and women are constantly being blamed, this is then internalised into self blame, which creates a lot of psychological problems for the victim.
"I believe that it happens, and I believe those that force women into having sex need to be punished."
In no way should rape be referred to as "sex". Or even worse "being forced to have sex", that isn't what rape is and detracts from the harm it inflicts.
"I do however refute the notion that we don’t care about he victims."
I don't think anyone said that.
"While this is a valid concern, I’d counter that for Deviant One’s claims to hold true, they must be true through the Western World.
Deviant One - ”All of these are realities, and all of these benefit the "status quo", which is the Patriarchy, and they happen even in "enlightened Western countries"
I don't think it needs to be true throughout the western sphere.
"I’ll try to be more civil, but these beliefs of hers, no matter how deeply she may hold them, are examples of where feminist doctrine ought to be open to criticisms and critical review. "
All views are open to criticism here, but hopefully illuminating criticism not hurtful.
Deviant One - "I also find it very interesting that you espouse all kinds of "facts" and "figures" and "recent studies done" "that has shown" all kinds of things, but we get nary a link from you.
But you know what I find most interesting of all?
That you didn't ask ME to back up MY claims.
This tells me that for you, it's not about debate, it's just about you being right because you are a male; and getting the "Gotcha", putting those damn entitled princesses (i.e. all women) in their place."
I’m no more right because I’m male than you are right because you’re female. You tossed out some supposed examples (that have been overused for years), which are easily refutable, so I called you on them. Yes, for brevity, only offered some of the empirical evidence that counter those claims. But, I have also seen the research that also serve to refute them.
Not providing cites, while an obvious omission on my part, is really the result of two things: Not having every reference at the ready when I’m typing (and needing to look them up), and the 4,096 character count limit that I’m frequently coming up against.
However, the references do exist, I need only do a quick search for them.
Well, start from where you did – the Wage Gap. Out of About 109,000 results (0.30 seconds), returned via Google Search, here’s a few from the top of the list:
BTW, the reason I didn’t challenge you to back up your claims is that I’ve seem the biased and self-serving feminist dogma before. But, I’m certainly not preventing you from posting it again.
Cassie - ” so you do buy into it. The opposite of date rape always seems to be "real rape". That is in my opinion quite dreadful.”
No. What I’m getting at is that if rape were to be used as means of oppression (i.e. raping those uppity women to put them in their place), it would be through random acts of date rape, but rather strategically planned out acts, most likely committed by stranger. [I should have termed them “stranger-rapes” to differentiate them from “date-rapes” – I simply failed to consider my use of terminology on that one. My apologies]
Cassie - ” I do 100% think that our society romanticises sexual assault and as a consequence encourage it as normal to heterosexual male, which I think is wrong to both men and women.”
I see no evidence of this going on amongst men (in general). There are perhaps some enclaves of such thinking (Fraternities come to mind), but I just don’t see it as wide spread. The closet thing I do see is seen in the romance novels so popular with women in which the desirable alpha-male forces himself on the heroine, at which point she realizes that she did really “want it” after all. But, please don’t blame us men for those.
Cassie - ” I back deviantone up on this one, there is definitely stigma surrounding being a rape victim and women are constantly being blamed, this is then internalised into self blame, which creates a lot of psychological problems for the victim.”
I believe women who been rape feel that stigma. But, things musty be a lot different down there. Here, if people do learn that a woman has been a victim, she will be given lots of care, sympathy, and understanding (the only exceptions I’ve observed coming from other women. I doubt their the ones who comprise this oppressive “patriarchy”).
Cassie - ” In no way should rape be referred to as "sex". Or even worse "being forced to have sex", that isn't what rape is and detracts from the harm it inflicts.”
Point taken. I apologize if my poor word choice has caused you discomfort or offense.
"No. What I’m getting at is that if rape were to be used as means of oppression (i.e. raping those uppity women to put them in their place), it would be through random acts of date rape, but rather strategically planned out acts, most likely committed by stranger."
I don't think anyone here is trying to describe rape as a terrorist action (although I am sure it can be).
"I see no evidence of this going on amongst men (in general). There are perhaps some enclaves of such thinking (Fraternities come to mind), but I just don’t see it as wide spread."
I was mostly referring to the media.
"I believe women who been rape feel that stigma. But, things musty be a lot different down there. Here, if people do learn that a woman has been a victim, she will be given lots of care, sympathy, and understanding (the only exceptions I’ve observed coming from other women. I doubt their the ones who comprise this oppressive “patriarchy”)."
I have experienced a lot of understanding myself, but also a lot of complete apathy. I think the point of a patriarchy is that everyone within that society comprises it.
"Point taken. I apologize if my poor word choice has caused you discomfort or offense"
Thanks for your apologies, I am still new to speaking about this openly so I may be a little sensitive. I hope you don't think I am pulling out a victim card to sway the argument. I bring it in only when I think it is relevant.
Cassie - ” I hope you don't think I am pulling out a victim card to sway the argument. I bring it in only when I think it is relevant.”
No, I didn’t even think of that angle. I just realized that my wording was insensitive to someone in your position.
As far as arguing on with Deviant One, I was busily putting together a list of links to relevant research when it suddenly struck me as a monumental waste of effort.
Gender-feminists like Deviant One are complete wed to this notion that men oppress women. Nothing I could proffer will ever sway her. So, I’ll spare you (and everyone else) the list of links.
In the end, I’m all for an individuals right to decide their own course of though and action. I don’t buy this idea of a controlling and oppressive “Patriarchy” (here, in the US, if anything, we are fast becoming a Matriarchy, given the proliferation of female-headed households and the disproportionate considerations, protections, and advantages given to women her). Things may be different in Australia, but here, the average women is hardly oppressed, and enjoys substantial advantage. If one were to randomly ask them to give an example of how they felt oppressed, the vast majority would be hard-pressed to come up with anything other than silly examples (like having to settle for a lower cost SUV because their husbands were being stingy).
But, as I retire from this debate, let me leave you with a few questions to ponder:
Do you, personally feel that you are oppressed by men (as a class)? Is your potential for advancement (personally, professionally, socially, whatever) being impinged upon by men (individually, or as a class)? Can you readily observe the expected results of the oppression of women amongst your female friends and acquaintances? Can you point to any gains or advantages men you know are enjoying at the expense of women (as a class)? Are women in your country not advancing in business, politics, and education?
So, what are the examples of this oppression by men upon women that you can detail?
It’s really just a set of rhetorical questions intended to have you consider, rather than except without question, this notion that men as a class are benefiting by oppressing women.
" Do you, personally feel that you are oppressed by men (as a class)? Is your potential for advancement (personally, professionally, socially, whatever) being impinged upon by men (individually, or as a class)? Can you readily observe the expected results of the oppression of women amongst your female friends and acquaintances? Can you point to any gains or advantages men you know are enjoying at the expense of women (as a class)? Are women in your country not advancing in business, politics, and education?"
I have a one word answer for all those questions. Rape.
Of course, I’ll never convince you, as you desperately cling to these as articles of faith.
Ditto. I, at least, can cite my sources, so I don't have to believe in it religiously.
But, as further, and more accurate research has been applied, it has been realized that the wage gap is much, much smaller than the data from two decades ago suggests. In fact, when comparing some occupations, controlling experience, it has been shown that women actually out-earn men.
I’m open to convincing, but I need facts and data. If you bring me the data, I will look at it and decide from there. Here are some facts about the wage gap:
In all of these, it is true that the wage gap is slowly shrinking. However, it can be seen clearly that it is shrinking by less than 1-3% year, and it does still exists - if it is true (data, please?) that women earn more in some areas, they earn significantly less in others because the average is still FAR below "equal".
There is no “Rape Culture”. Throughout the Western World, rape as treated as the most serious of crimes, nearly equal to murder. Vast sums of money are spent on rape prevent, on special sex-crime police units, and on specialized prosecution for such crimes. Boy’s and young men are bombarded for an early age about the proper way to treat women and girls. Rape, real rape, is simply not tolerated. But, of course, the belief that it is tolerated, and even encouraged, is fundamental to extreme gender-feminist doctrine. So, you basically have no choice but to convince yourself of it, lack of any real evidence (not to mention copious evidence to the contrary) be damned!
Did you even read the article I linked? Because I don't see any other "evidence" being presented here but mine.
I would like to see your references to back up your claim that “there is no Rape Culture”.
Since you seen to have missed it, Rape Shield Laws are widely used to protect a woman who claims of have been raped (even those who are simply lying about it in an estimated 40% of reported cases). The real shaming happens to men accused, even those being falsely accused. They have their names released to the press, they find themselves scorned by those around them, they loose their jobs, some are attack, and a few are even killed – all based on no more than the accusation of a woman. Society, especially men, take the crime of rape that seriously.
References and evidence for your “lying in an estimated 40% of reported cases”, please.
Once again, I refer you to the article previously cited, and here’s somebonusarticles.
Women who claim to have been raped are provided with substantial assistance, including counseling, special victim advocates to help them through the entire legal process, and even generous financial assistance. All of this is available even to those women who simply comes to regret the consensual sex she engaged in, and wished to recast it as rape to salvage her reputation or cover for her infidelity to another. Poor treatment, my ass!
Even if it were true that what you say is as common as you say it is, I have some questions for you:
Why do you think a woman would “consent” to sex, only to regret it later?
Why do you think she would feel ashamed, or need to “salvage” her reputation, if the sex was truly consensual and no pressure or outside forces and expectancies and judgements were involved?
And you cannot be serious about shaming treatment in DV. A woman need only contend that she “feels” threatened to see that the man is arrested and/or physically removed for her presence. And, like be accused of rape, the mark of shame absolutely accrues to him, and certainly not her.
And, what of this vague ”BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy”? You mean like the right to have an abortion if she feels like it? Or, make the guy pay if she doesn’t? Just what do you mean her? I was referring to things like public gropings, catcalling and other covert forms of sexual abuse, but abortion; ease of guilt-free access to does also fit that bill.
But, as I’m sure you noticed in the False Rape Society blog, there are also many instances wherein a women simply regrets the consensual sex she has engaged in, and decides to cry rape to cover for her own poor decisions. Notice the striking number of instance where women admit to having falsely claimed to have been raped when their own infidelities were in jeopardy of being discovered.
My over-arching point was that rape simply is not a tool being actively used by men (as a class) to oppress women (as a class). There are some men who are rapists. They are truly evil men, who society right scorn. But, there are also women who rape. Lesbian rape is reported to be seldom reported, although quite common. But, as Eve Ensler contends, that’s “good rape”. Like Cassie pointed out, I was referring to the effect. And there is no such thing “good rape”, “Bad rape”, “date rape”, “grey rape”, “real rape” distinctions, or at least there shouldn’t be. Rape is rape when there wasn’t a freely given “yes”. End. Of. Story.
But, what Deviant One seemed to be rather obviously implying was that rape victims were treated shamefully (i.e. call sluts, and blamed for bringing it upon themselves). There might be some instances of such (personally, the only times I’ve witnessed it happen, it came from other women, not men, BTW), there is certainly no systematic effort to shame women. To the contrary (here, anyway), they are given free counseling, financial assistance, and have victims advocates at their disposal through the legal process. Every effort is made to comfort and reassure them (even those who turn out to have been lying).
I answered this earlier, but I’d like to point out that women are very often tools of the patriarchy and system themselves, and that just because a woman is the one doing it, doesn’t make it worse (or better/more acceptable/correct) in any way, shape or form.
Actually, I say it in order to counter the idea put forth that the supposed Patriarchy is using rape to oppress. It was to demonstrate how society actually treats rape victims. And, BTW, I know a number of the counselors and victim advocates personally. I fully support giving aid and comfort to those who’ve been victimized. I do however refute the notion that we don’t care about he victims.
Rape is a by-product of patriarchy and patriarchal norms, seeing women as possessions, somehow “deserving” to be raped by what she wore, what she did in her sex life with other partners before, what she did allow with the rapist before. See: Rape Culture. And yes, I did link it again because I’m hoping that you’re really interested in debate and will, at the very least, read it, as I’ve read the meagre few links and references you’ve provided.
While this is a valid concern, I’d counter that for Deviant One’s claims to hold true, they must be true through the Western World. What claims specifically are those? Because, not to speak on her behalf, but I read that Cassie was saying that they don’t have YOUR specific domestic violence legislation, which you seem upset with, in Australia.
As far as arguing on with Deviant One, I was busily putting together a list of links to relevant research when it suddenly struck me as a monumental waste of effort.
Gender-feminists like Deviant One are complete wed to this notion that men oppress women. Nothing I could proffer will ever sway her. So, I’ll spare you (and everyone else) the list of links.
Thanks for judging me, slwerner. You really proved many of my points in that.
I am very open to new thoughts and ideas regarding the reality I live, actually, but then, I already said that earlier.
In the end, I’m all for an individuals right to decide their own course of though and action. I don’t buy this idea of a controlling and oppressive “Patriarchy” (here, in the US, if anything, we are fast becoming a Matriarchy, given the proliferation of female-headed households and the disproportionate considerations, protections, and advantages given to women her).
I would like examples of this, please. I have given you numerous examples of how women are oppressed, you just choose to disbelieve them and make them off as “rubbish” (without proof, I might add) because they don’t form part of your experience as a man. That is part of your privilege.
@ Deviant one There was a study done on the frequency of FRA that showed a 41% false claim rate. (I have read all the studies on it I can find).
However I do not take that study seriously as it was performed in one geographical area, and only about 90 cases were taken into consideration, well I guess I will just link you to the study as the flaws are self evident.
But, as I retire from this debate, let me leave you with a few questions to ponder: Do you, personally feel that you are oppressed by men (as a class)? Yes.
Is your potential for advancement (personally, professionally, socially, whatever) being impinged upon by men (individually, or as a class)? Yes.
Can you readily observe the expected results of the oppression of women amongst your female friends and acquaintances? Yes. I don’t know even one woman who does not have weight issues, issues with how she looks, issues with her sexuality, issues issues issues.
Can you point to any gains or advantages men you know are enjoying at the expense of women (as a class)? Well, for one, men don’t generally believe, have to deal with, or even think much about this stuff, because IT’S NOT HAPPENING TO THEM.
Are women in your country not advancing in business, politics, and education? Yes they are, but there’s a long way to go to get to “equality”.
So, what are the examples of this oppression by men upon women that you can detail? I gave you many, many examples, yet they still weren’t believed. So what would more examples achieve?
I’ll try to be more civil, but these beliefs of hers, no matter how deeply she may hold them, are examples of where feminist doctrine ought to be open to criticisms and critical review.
I do hold them dear, you are quite correct because I have lived them, and I still do. Every day.
I grew up in a violent home. I was raped, shamed and disbelieved by the authorities and thus, my rape claim will probably count as one of your “false rape” stats, since I withdrew the charges after being told “It’s your word against his, and everyone knows that women lie about these things and men don’t” by not one, not three, not even FIVE people in authority. And this was not an isolated event. Not by a long shot
Now please, tell me again how you rationalize saying that women as a group are not oppressed?
Thanks for the link, Cassie. I did come across it before and you are correct - the flaws in the methodology and interpretation of that study are very obvious.
And I feel like I'm spamming you, sorry! Damn this google 4090 character limit!
I think it's very true. Most of our differences come from environment and upbringing. I think it's sad that there are people male and female who spend so much of their time hating half of the human race. There are bigger problems in the world.
ReplyDelete"The largest gender differences are in the domain of motor performance (such as throwing velocity and distance). A second area is sexuality, particularly in reported masturbation activity, and attitudes about casual and uncommitted relationships. Although much publicity has been given to gender differences in aggression, the differences are only moderate. Furthermore "relational" aggression which has been publicized as more common among girls shows no consistent gender difference."
ReplyDeleteSeems Hyde's "big two" are the BIG TWO: strength and physical ability (which typically includes spatial coordination) neatly, and deceptively packed as motor performance and (drum roll please…) SEXUALITY (who’d have guessed that would be important?), including attitude on relationships. These are the two chasms that gender-feminists, try as they might, can not bridge, hide nor eliminate. Men and woman ARE fundamentally different in these two most important areas.
When women try to act more like men, it does not tend to work out as well for them as they’d like to believe, and, despite much wailing and gnashing of teeth, men are just bigger, stronger, faster, and more coordinated than women (comparing averages, of course). It’s not a gender-construct, nor any great effort by the evil Patriarchy to hold women down.
Yes, men and women tend to have roughly equal intelligence (in terms of raw measure). But, just having the mental ability is not the same thing as applying it in useful ways.
I work in scientific research and my wife is an attorney. Both of these professions allow for appropriately intelligent people to have essentially equal access (brain power jobs, not brawn). Yet, in observing the relatively small populations I see in each filed, while it is clear that women are perfectly capable and competent, women seem to suffer more (and more frequent) “issues” and seem to mess up their personal lives to a greater extent than do men.
Sometimes brain power alone isn’t enough. Only a subset of women who have the brain-power end up succeeding to the same levels as men (this despite Herculean efforts to “correct” the supposed imbalance). Even as men as systematically disadvantaged, the best and brightest still out-perform their female counter-parts. I’m not meaning to be sexist, just pointing out the inescapable reality. Despite being so much alike (in raw mental ability), outcomes still favor men.
Put this on top of the BIG TWO, and you are left with substantial (and easily observable) differences between men and women as classes.
I have read that article.
ReplyDeleteThanks for bringing it into the forum. Your own observations however, I object to. I will leave most of it alone as I can predict it going around in circles, this statement in particular irked me though...
"Put this on top of the BIG TWO, and you are left with substantial (and easily observable) differences between men and women as classes."
I think that is the point of the article, to not view genders as classes. Yes I think everyone understands men are built physically stronger then women, but is that something to base a class mentality on?
@Slwerner
ReplyDeleteSorry I deleted your comment by mistake, I got confused because you keep sending me 3 or 4 copies of it. Please make it again you raised some interesting points.
[Sorry about multiple posts, Blogger kept giving me a unavailable error, leading me to believe that my comments had not made it through. If I wasn't so busy right now, I'd try to rework it a bit]
ReplyDeleteAFOTC - ”I think that is the point of the article, to not view genders as classes. Yes I think everyone understands men are built physically stronger then women, but is that something to base a class mentality on?”
Frankly, I’m not quite sure where you see this idea coming out in the Psychology Today review of Hyde’s work you linked (the link to Hyde’s Journal article - http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp606581.pdf - doesn’t work).
I see it as being liitle different for the long-running feminist meta-narrative that men need to become more like women, eschewing their natural masculinity, in order for their to be gender equity. As I see it, the review (at least) essentially glosses over that the BIG TWO areas of gender difference even exist – pretending that since men and women are more alike in the balance of a larger number of other measures, that there is essentially “no difference”. I’d point out his statement from that review:
” Perhaps we start out believing in gender differences and therefore see them wherever we look.”
It seems to be implying that the only real differences are those we’ve come to (mistakenly) believe exist. While it doesn’t specifically state it, it quite obvious that the point is to over-look any real differences that exist outside of a system of belief in them. And, if we focus on the measures where men and women are closer, we’d see more gender-equity.
Of course, in order to get to the gender equity that this implies, men will need to do away with their masculine “advantages”. But, this is certainly not a new idea amongst feminists – they been saying it for decades now.
While you call yourself a Feminist I’m beginning to suspect that you haven’t actually read/studied much of what your feminist fore-sisters have said. It’s not me that started the notion of men and women as separate classes – that was the work of feminists, who specifically focused on the gender differences, particularly those where men’s masculine natures were perceived to cause imbalance and injustice.
Perhaps you’d care to take a glance at the S.C.U.M. manifesto fro some real feminist guidance:
”The male is a biological accident: the Y (male) gene is an incomplete X (female) gene, that is, it has an incomplete set of chromosomes. In other words, the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples.” - Valerie Solanas, The S.C.U.M. Manifesto
Nice, heh?
Yes, there are some serious misogynists amongst the ranks of MRA’s, who truly hate women. Yet, even they don’t publish notions equal to the likes killing-off 90% of all men or castrating baby boys to remove their masculinity, and make them more like women – now, do you?
What I find odd is that, when pressed, a lot of self-described feminists will remark that they don’t really believe in the radical ideas of their fore-sisters – yet, they will almost never actually denounce even the most hateful of the feminist-agenda’s. I wonder why that is?
It’s seems unfortunate that a bright young women like yourself should chose to identify yourself with a movement that, at is core, is little more than an anti-male hate movement. It’s the feminist leaders who spewed much of the hate that make it clear to me that men DO NOT need to act in any way more like feminist women, but rather that feminists should learn to act more like (most) MRA’s in seeking equity rather than dis-empowerment, displacement, and destruction of the other gender.
Who knows, maybe you’ll one day read more of the core tenant of feminism and realize that you should join with us?
Since you're a feminist open to criticism(s), I thought I'd toss in a link to this for your consideration:
ReplyDeleteFeminist False Consciousness
"it quite obvious that the point is to over-look any real differences that exist outside of a system of belief in them. And, if we focus on the measures where men and women are closer, we’d see more gender-equity."
ReplyDeleteI actually agree with that point the article makes, we all know men are physically stronger. Why bring attention to it? Who really cares? I don't.
Sorry about my mistaken comment about you bringing an article in before, I get confused at 4am haha.
"While you call yourself a Feminist I’m beginning to suspect that you haven’t actually read/studied much of what your feminist fore-sisters have said."
*sigh* please read the blog entry where we discuss what it means to be a feminist. I won't get into this debate again.
"It’s not me that started the notion of men and women as separate classes – that was the work of feminists, who specifically focused on the gender differences, particularly those where men’s masculine natures were perceived to cause imbalance and injustice. "
Firstly, the notion of gender class existed before feminism, you don't need someone to stop and say "look there's a class system" for there to in fact be a class system. Secondly you use the term "perceived" are you suggesting there never was any injustice?
"What I find odd is that, when pressed, a lot of self-described feminists will remark that they don’t really believe in the radical ideas of their fore-sisters – yet, they will almost never actually denounce even the most hateful of the feminist-agenda’s. I wonder why that is?"
I think I need an example or two before I can properly comment on that.
"It’s seems unfortunate that a bright young women like yourself should chose to identify yourself with a movement that, at is core, is little more than an anti-male hate movement."
Again I will say I disagree with this sentiment, please read through previous blog entries.
"Who knows, maybe you’ll one day read more of the core tenant of feminism and realize that you should join with us? "
Why assume I am against you?
I read the article you sent me. It is quite obviously misogynistic and upon reading the comments my thoughts were further confirmed. Misogyny that attracts misogynistic people. Sorry never going to be signing on board with such blatant sexism.
ReplyDeleteBefore I got crucified for saying that and being a feminist, first I challenge you to identify something I have said as being an example of a view of misandry.
@slwerner:"It’s not me that started the notion of men and women as separate classes – that was the work of feminists, who specifically focused on the gender differences, particularly those where men’s masculine natures were perceived to cause imbalance and injustice."
ReplyDeletesl, seriously? The rise of feminism (which, btw, is not some recent American phenomenon, but has been around in some form since the beginning of time...well, okay, humans) is in REACTION to accepted roles and classes put forth by men historically. The entire idea of class in regards to gender, with males being seen as "the superior species," can be seen reflected in literature going back thousands of years. I think the bible even has a comment or two on the topic.
I give you that the recent brand of feminism flipped it around too quickly for many folks to be comfortable with and went too far in certain areas, but let's not pretend that viewing women as "other" "lesser" "weaker"(not just physically) is an historical male-focused viewpoint. Which is NOT to say that women didn't buy into it, support it, promote it, and benefit from it in certain ways.
But it ain't a female-created thang.
I actually disagree that the article is misogynistic (other than it is male-centered), but it is fallacious in a number of ways. It's outlining a male paradigm, which is a re-frame of parts of the radical feminist concept.
ReplyDeleteI find the article fascinating on one level as if you simply substitute the words male/masculine, etc. with their gender counterparts, you have a standard wo-manifesto (hee hee) that was parried about in the early part of the current feminist movement.
Same ideas re-tooled. Which isn't surprising, as EVERY successful social movement follows similar principles. I do think the women-oppressing-men narrative is a hard one to sell though without a complete revamping of modern social consciousness.
Overall, the focus is harmful to people just as the radical feminist notions are.
I was curious about one phrase and would like to hear more from those who know:
"We recognize “equality”, rightly, as a fallacy incompatible with reality (Battle Of The Sexes/Sexual Conflict)."
What exactly does this mean because it doesn't make sense as it stands?
I did read the rest of that paragraph, so if it's as simple as a bad definition, that's fine. Just wondered if there was more.
"We recognize “equality”, rightly, as a fallacy incompatible with reality (Battle Of The Sexes/Sexual Conflict)."
ReplyDeleteI think it is just a fancy way of saying gender equality will never happen.
Fixed my typo. I meant:
ReplyDelete"but let's not pretend that viewing women as "other" "lesser" "weaker"(not just physically) is NOT an historical male-focused viewpoint."
Evil double-negative. That's the real enemy.
@Cassie: "I think it is just a fancy way of saying gender equality will never happen."
ReplyDeleteIt reads more insidious than that to me. That those men who sign onto this philosophy will actively combat equality. The definition given in the article is different than how the sentence by itself reads.
Blogging question: how do you all put your quotes in italics?
Social Worker
ReplyDeleteYou could be right
I don't think it is going to be something that will take off though.
Social Worker - ”The entire idea of class in regards to gender, with males being seen as "the superior species," can be seen reflected in literature going back thousands of years. “
ReplyDeleteHum? You might be right, given the way that through all recorded history it's been the women who taken on the role of protecting the menfolk, willing sacrificing their lives so that their men would have a chance to live on. And, of course, it's always been poor young women who were conscripted to go off to be the cannon-fodder of war. Geez! How could I have for gotten something that important, and so demonstrative of which gender has always been considered more important.
Well, enough snarking at you. Still, what you fail to recognize it that socio-economic and political class(as well as race) have always been much, much more the dividers amongst people. Yes, of course, the men at the top of the heap were seen a more valuable than women, but women of higher socio-economic class were certainly valued far about the men of the working and peasant classes.
What I was referring to twas the modern construct of all men (as a class) being seen as the oppressors of all women (as a class), and the pitting of the genders against one another – which IS the handiwork of Feminism. You demonstrated the effect of their efforts nicely when you looked back over history and picked out the examples of the privilege of select men and extrapolated it onto all men as a class.
It's also why ideas such as all men being potential rapists and abusers is so popular amongst feminists – it's the idea of seeing all men as being no different than the worst of men. It makes it seem more reasonable to therefore look at the top of the corporate world, and use male dominance therein to justify the active discrimination against men such as we now see in terms of college admission and financial aid.
By seeing all men as a unified class, the idea that the poor farm kid who's worked hard to earn a chance to go to college and build a better life for his family has unjustly benefits by virtue of being a man; and that some young women from a upper-middle income family is therefore more deserving (despite having more actual advantages in life, and likely having been less studious – her life of parting and shopping making her a more “well rounded” person, after all).
One of my biggest gripes with feminism is that it specifically all women as oppressed, and all men as oppressors; without due regard to the reality of individual circumstances.
"One of my biggest gripes with feminism is that it specifically all women as oppressed, and all men as oppressors; without due regard to the reality of individual circumstances. "
ReplyDeleteI have noticed that kind of thinking on some feminist sites. I challenge it and end up getting attacked. It is interesting.
I would just like to clarify: In feminist jargon, what can come across as "all women are oppressed and all men are oppressors" just means that women as a group are oppressed, and that men as a group tend to be the ones doing the oppressing.
ReplyDeleteShakesville had a relevant article on this, and I'm sure Googling and the Feminism 101 blog will provide many more.
There is merit in equating living in the Patriarchy to living in the Matrix, and the following quote:
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.—Morpheus
Sorry, I mis-phrased that, it was exactly what I wasn't trying to say. Here's the corrected version:
ReplyDeleteWomen as a group are oppressed, and men as a group tend to be the ones who *benefit* from that oppressing.
All apologies.
Deviant One - "Women as a group are oppressed, and men as a group tend to be the ones who *benefit* from that oppressing."
ReplyDeleteI'm going to have to call BS on this. There are very few men oppressing anyone, and very few women suffering any real oppression.
As feminists always have to do, you have to view men collectively as a class so as to smear all men with the misdeeds of a very few.
And, in reality, women in modern Western countries are hardly oppressed (as a class).
Even the "Wage Gap" narrows to a few cents when correcting for relevant considerations such as level of education and the length of time (years) a person has been working.
Plus, when researchers “drill-down” and do more apples-to-apples comparisons, there are numerous job categories where women are paid more on average than are men.
So, in the end, it is absolutely necessary that all working men be lumped into a single class – including the few-in-number but very high-in-pay CEO-types and professional athletes, along with the greater number of men who’ve worked many years to get to top-level pay so that the supposed “Wage Gap” can still be claimed (how it can be done with a straight face completely escapes me).
It’s basically the same thing that is done so as to smear all men with the crimes committed by a relative few. And, of course, if women are to be seen as oppressed, they must be viewed as a class so that the vast majority of women who enjoy substantial advantage, and who have few fears, can still be seen as being “oppressed” based on what a relative few unfortunate women must endure.
But, Hell, I’ll play along: Why don’t you make a list of the ways in which women are being oppressed (and how all men benefit)?
Perhaps I can then respond with a list enumerating the many ways men & boys are disadvantaged, and the ways men ARE being oppressed – especially via the Anti-Family Courts. We can play a game of “Who has it worse, men or women”. Sounds like fun.
"And, in reality, women in modern Western countries are hardly oppressed (as a class)."
ReplyDeleteIf as a comparison to muslim countries then I agree, however those countries tend to be more biased in a lot of ways.
Therefore what you are saying amounts to we shouldn't worry about our problems because other people have it worse. I have never found that rationale to be particularly helpful or relevant.
"Perhaps I can then respond with a list enumerating the many ways men & boys are disadvantaged, and the ways men ARE being oppressed – especially via the Anti-Family Courts. We can play a game of “Who has it worse, men or women”. "
Please don't, I want to continue real debate rather then start a pissing contest.
Also keep in mind I am Australian, a lot of the family court legislature isn't particularly relevant to my country.
”Please don't, I want to continue real debate rather then start a pissing contest.”
ReplyDeleteIn reality, I’d rather not do it myself. I’m mostly just reacting to the non-sense claim that ”Women as a group are oppressed, and men as a group tend to be the ones who *benefit* from that oppressing.”
I’d agree that in the Islamic World (and most of the Third World) women do have it much worse. But, Australia is part of the so-called Anglosphere, and of so-called Western society, wherein women (as a class) have it rather well.
It’s pretty easy to see that women enjoy a number of advantages (over men), so this blather about being “oppressed” just seems like empty feminist rhetoric and a system of false beliefs which many feminist simply take a Gospel Truth and dare not question.
While it seems that Deviant One has bought into the “oppression” meme, I get the impression that you have not. Far better than a pissing contest, what I’d like to hear are your thoughts on the idea that women as a class are oppressed and that men as a class are benefiting for this oppression of women.
"It’s pretty easy to see that women enjoy a number of advantages (over men), so this blather about being “oppressed” just seems like empty feminist rhetoric and a system of false beliefs which many feminist simply take a Gospel Truth and dare not question."
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to respond to that without examples.
"Far better than a pissing contest, what I’d like to hear are your thoughts on the idea that women as a class are oppressed and that men as a class are benefiting for this oppression of women."
That is an interesting question, I would like some time to think about it, I will get back to you soon.
Cassie - "It is hard to respond to that without examples."
ReplyDeleteAh, but examples would mean posting that list to which you remarked, "Please Don't"
But how about just a couple to get started with:
Women are give preference in college admission over men, and now represent over 60% of college students.
There are a large number of Scholarships and grants available only to women (Frankly, both my wife, and my two daughters have benefited), while there are no such resources available only to men (my son will be thus disadvantaged when he is ready to go to college).
Neither of those is particularly controversial, given that the empirical evidence is so very obvious, and most people recognize both as realities.
"Ah, but examples would mean posting that list to which you remarked, "Please Don't"
ReplyDeletearguing for the sake of arguing just makes you appear makes you appear bickersome,
Is it possible to provide any Australian examples? (being that I am Aussie)
Cassie - "Is it possible to provide any Australian examples? (being that I am Aussie)"
ReplyDeleteActually, I was hoping that Deviant One would supply some examples of the supposed oppression that women (as a class) suffer at the hands of the men (who benefit as a class). I've seen some rather outlandish claims about just what constitutes "oppression". But, then again, the US is full of some rather spoiled bratty women (I've often gotten the idea that there isn't so much of an "entitled princess" syndrome amongst Aussie women, but I have no definitive information).
I didn't think the two examples I gave were at all argumentative - especially as they are already widely acknowledged (at least in the US). I wonder if the situation isn't a bit the same throughout the entire Anglosphere. I suspect you are in a much better position to know what’s happening in your country.
But, by way of further example, here in the US we’ve been treated to a steady stream of triumphant stories about how women are out achieving men in education, and recently have over-taken men in the workforce – hardly evidence of women being “oppressed”, BTW – thus, I’d imagine if the same were going on in Australia, there would have been news accounts that you might have seen.
I am unaware of women here being given additional consideration in attending tertiary education institutions. We do however give Aboriginal people preference, which I support.
ReplyDeleteI have never heard of women here boasting about being better then men in terms of the workforce. Not that I am one to watch the news, or pay attention to such absurdity if it did come on.
If you could keep thinking and perhaps come up with an example I can relate to more that would be appreciated. In the meantime I will research a bit on these topics and see if I can't form some opinions.
I was sleeping, slwerener, that's why I'm only replying now.
ReplyDeleteAn article to start you off
As to an example of how women are still oppressed? HOw about the wage gap? How about victim shaming and treatment in rape and DV cases? How about the RAPE CULTURE we, and yes this INCLUDES THE U.S. and it includes men, live in? How about being denied the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy and the dignity to exert that right?
All of these are realities, and all of these benefit the "status quo", which is the Patriarchy, and they happen even in "enlightened Western countries", no matter how little you want to hear of it. These are just a few examples, there are many more.
Also, please note that there is a huge distinction between men and women as a group and individuals. I know many individual men that are hurt by the rape culture, for example, but it is still institutionalized oppression of women.
As for the colleges thing, I am going to ask for your evidence, since I, too, don't live in the US.
Deviant One - "HOw about the wage gap? How about victim shaming and treatment in rape and DV cases? How about the RAPE CULTURE we, and yes this INCLUDES THE U.S. and it includes men, live in? How about being denied the BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy and the dignity to exert that right?"
ReplyDeleteReally!? The same tired, and easily refuted shallow BS we'd been force-fed for decades now? That's the best you can possibly do?
Of course, I’ll never convince you, as you desperately cling to these as articles of faith. But, as further, and more accurate research has been applied, it has been realized that the wage gap is much, much smaller than the data from two decades ago suggests. In fact, when comparing some occupations, controlling experience, it has been shown that women actually out-earn men.
There is no “Rape Culture”. Throughout the Western World, rape as treated as the most serious of crimes, nearly equal to murder. Vast sums of money are spent on rape prevent, on special sex-crime police units, and on specialized prosecution for such crimes. Boy’s and young men are bombarded for an early age about the proper way to treat women and girls. Rape, real rape, is simply not tolerated. But, of course, the belief that it is tolerated, and even encouraged, is fundamental to extreme gender-feminist doctrine. So, you basically have no choice but to convince yourself of it, lack of any real evidence (not to mention copious evidence to the contrary) be damned!
Since you seen to have missed it, Rape Shield Laws are widely used to protect a woman who claims of have been raped (even those who are simply lying about it in an estimated 40% of reported cases). The real shaming happens to men accused, even those being falsely accused. They have their names released to the press, they find themselves scorned by those around them, they loose their jobs, some are attack, and a few are even killed – all based on no more than the accusation of a woman. Society, especially men, take the crime of rape that seriously.
Women who claim to have been raped are provided with substantial assistance, including counseling, special victim advocates to help them through the entire legal process, and even generous financial assistance. All of this is available even to those women who simply comes to regret the consensual sex she engaged in, and wished to recast it as rape to salvage her reputation or cover for her infidelity to another. Poor treatment, my ass!
And you cannot be serious about shaming treatment in DV. A woman need only contend that she “feels” threatened to see that the man is arrested and/or physically removed for her presence. And, like be accused of rape, the mark of shame absolutely accrues to him, and certainly not her.
And, what of this vague ”BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy”? You mean like the right to have an abortion if she feels like it? Or, make the guy pay if she doesn’t? Just what do you mean her?
I suspect you have to be vague, because any attempt at specific examples would leave them as easily demolished as your other pathetic claims.
Weak! Really weak!
"Weak! Really weak! "
ReplyDeletePlease slwerner, I don't want to prevent your posts from going through, but insults like these are not going to be tolerated on my blog. It is pointless and rude, please be respectful. It isn't useful in debate and in my opinion inhibits it.
As for your claims of women having it better ('entitled princesses', really! Lucky you're not misogynistic, eh?) not being as oppressed and basically crying, "what about the menz"?, here's a Great Article for you, written by a man, about that very issue.
ReplyDelete@ slwerner
ReplyDelete"Rape, real rape, is simply not tolerated. But, of course, the belief that it is tolerated, and even encouraged, is fundamental to extreme gender-feminist doctrine."
I dislike this term, do you buy into the doctrine of gray rape or date rape?
Also please note that the rape shield law doesn't exist in my country and many more I am sure.
I quickly hit wiki to find out what it means, I am not one to trust wiki too much, but I will research up on it more later. Wiki says it is the law to prevent bringing up the accusers past and to protect them from being publically named. Is there anything more to it? If that is it all it involves then I fully agree with it. I don't need the fact I have had sex or rape sex brought into a rape trial, it is irrelevant.
"The real shaming happens to men accused, even those being falsely accused. "
This is a flawed statement to me, it implies there is no shame to being raped, which absolutely absurd. I struggled with the shame for years (and still do).
While I feel for the men falsely accused of rape, I don't have an issue with convicted rapists being publically named.
"Women who claim to have been raped are provided with substantial assistance, including counseling, special victim advocates to help them through the entire legal process, and even generous financial assistance."
You say this like it is a big accomplishment...and it is, isn't that sad, that we didn't think it worthwhile looking after people who had suffered from this crime?
"And you cannot be serious about shaming treatment in DV. A woman need only contend that she “feels” threatened to see that the man is arrested and/or physically removed for her presence. And, like be accused of rape, the mark of shame absolutely accrues to him, and certainly not her. "
Is this under the VAWA law, I have heard people talkiing about? If so, again we don't have this in Australia.
"And, what of this vague ”BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy”? You mean like the right to have an abortion if she feels like it? Or, make the guy pay if she doesn’t? Just what do you mean her?"
I support both these laws.
I brought up the fact that those laws are american (and canadian) based because I don't think deviant one is American.
Meaning you are on two different battlegrounds here, you both may need to find some common ground.
Cassie - ”I dislike this term, do you buy into the doctrine of gray rape or date rape?”
ReplyDeleteBut, this is not the type of rape that is supposedly being used and encouraged in order to oppress women. I believe that it happens, and I believe those that force women into having sex need to be punished. But, as I’m sure you noticed in the False Rape Society blog, there are also many instances wherein a women simply regrets the consensual sex she has engaged in, and decides to cry rape to cover for her own poor decisions. Notice the striking number of instance where women admit to having falsely claimed to have been raped when their own infidelities were in jeopardy of being discovered.
My over-arching point was that rape simply is not a tool being actively used by men (as a class) to oppress women (as a class). There are some men who are rapists. They are truly evil men, who society right scorn. But, there are also women who rape. Lesbian rape is reported to be seldom reported, although quite common. But, as Eve Ensler contends, that’s “good rape”.
As too the Rape Shield Laws, you have hit he basics. As I’ve previously noted, my wife is a prosecutor, and although rape is a particularly common crime, she has tried a number of rape cases (including one that nearly went to trial before the accuser admit that she’d been lying all along). So, while it may surprise you to know, I do favor the Basic Rape Shield Laws. They do protect victim identities, and exclude information which is not germane to the issue of whether or not the alleged crime has occurred (a woman may be a long-time prostitute, but if she was forced against her will, it’s still rape).
Cassie - ”This is a flawed statement to me, it implies there is no shame to being raped, which absolutely absurd. I struggled with the shame for years (and still do).”
I did not mean to imply that raped women do not feel shame. I know that they do, often very deeply. I do feel for women like you who have suffered.
But, what Deviant One seemed to be rather obviously implying was that rape victims were treated shamefully (i.e. call sluts, and blamed for bringing it upon themselves). There might be some instances of such (personally, the only times I’ve witnessed it happen, it came from other women, not men, BTW), there is certainly no systematic effort to shame women. To the contrary (here, anyway), they are given free counseling, financial assistance, and have victims advocates at their disposal through the legal process. Every effort is made to comfort and reassure them (even those who turn out to have been lying).
The broader point is that her point about the supposed shaming of rape victims isn’t happening, but when men are named as rapists, they certainly are.
Cassie - ” You say this like it is a big accomplishment...and it is, isn't that sad, that we didn't think it worthwhile looking after people who had suffered from this crime?”
Actually, I say it in order to counter the idea put forth that the supposed Patriarchy is using rape to oppress. It was to demonstrate how society actually treats rape victims. And, BTW, I know a number of the counselors and victim advocates personally. I fully support giving aid and comfort to those who’ve been victimized. I do however refute the notion that we don’t care about he victims.
Cassie - ”… again we don't have this in Australia.”
While this is a valid concern, I’d counter that for Deviant One’s claims to hold true, they must be true through the Western World.
Deviant One - ”All of these are realities, and all of these benefit the "status quo", which is the Patriarchy, and they happen even in "enlightened Western countries"
I’ll try to be more civil, but these beliefs of hers, no matter how deeply she may hold them, are examples of where feminist doctrine ought to be open to criticisms and critical review.
Edited to add: I posted my previous comment for moderation before slwerner replied, so here's my reply to his:
ReplyDeleteI love how you, a man, can come here and tell us what women actually feel, go through and experience in traumatic and real situations like rape and DV.
And then, to add to the chuckles, your views are IN DIRECT CONTRAST with peer-reviewed, studies done, research published in accredited journals etc.
I also find it very interesting that you espouse all kinds of "facts" and "figures" and "recent studies done" "that has shown" all kinds of things, but we get nary a link from you.
But you know what I find most interesting of all?
That you didn't ask ME to back up MY claims.
This tells me that for you, it's not about debate, it's just about you being right because you are a male; and getting the "Gotcha", putting those damn entitled princesses (i.e. all women) in their place.
And you know what?
I can't stop laughing, or take you seriously at all, because I see what you did there. ;p
@ deviantone
ReplyDeleteI am enjoying your posts, your point of view and the links you provide, but as when Slwerner was being rude I feel like I have to ask you to simmer down a little with the insults. I understand the need to argue back when insulted but the score is even now, lets get back to keeping it civil shall we? I would appreciate it
"But, this is not the type of rape that is supposedly being used and encouraged in order to oppress women."
ReplyDeleteso you do buy into it. The opposite of date rape always seems to be "real rape". That is in my opinion quite dreadful. To sing an old tune, not being dragged kicking and screaming into an ally at knifepoint doesn't make it a lesser rape.
"But, this is not the type of rape that is supposedly being used and encouraged in order to oppress women."
I will the part where you use "Type" of rape, because I have made my views there quite clear. Fast forward to the point that rape is being used to oppress women. I don't know how deviantone meant it, but personally I see it as a product of oppression rather then an action of oppression. Also in regards to rape culture, well I haven't formed concrete opinions on this yet, I do 100% think that our society romanticises sexual assault and as a consequence encourage it as normal to heterosexual male, which I think is wrong to both men and women.
"There are some men who are rapists. They are truly evil men, who society right scorn."
I don't believe in evil.
"But, what Deviant One seemed to be rather obviously implying was that rape victims were treated shamefully (i.e. call sluts, and blamed for bringing it upon themselves). "
I back deviantone up on this one, there is definitely stigma surrounding being a rape victim and women are constantly being blamed, this is then internalised into self blame, which creates a lot of psychological problems for the victim.
"I believe that it happens, and I believe those that force women into having sex need to be punished."
In no way should rape be referred to as "sex". Or even worse "being forced to have sex", that isn't what rape is and detracts from the harm it inflicts.
"I do however refute the notion that we don’t care about he victims."
I don't think anyone said that.
"While this is a valid concern, I’d counter that for Deviant One’s claims to hold true, they must be true through the Western World.
Deviant One - ”All of these are realities, and all of these benefit the "status quo", which is the Patriarchy, and they happen even in "enlightened Western countries"
I don't think it needs to be true throughout the western sphere.
"I’ll try to be more civil, but these beliefs of hers, no matter how deeply she may hold them, are examples of where feminist doctrine ought to be open to criticisms and critical review. "
All views are open to criticism here, but hopefully illuminating criticism not hurtful.
All apologies, AFOTC. I shall tone it down.
ReplyDeleteDeviant One - "I also find it very interesting that you espouse all kinds of "facts" and "figures" and "recent studies done" "that has shown" all kinds of things, but we get nary a link from you.
ReplyDeleteBut you know what I find most interesting of all?
That you didn't ask ME to back up MY claims.
This tells me that for you, it's not about debate, it's just about you being right because you are a male; and getting the "Gotcha", putting those damn entitled princesses (i.e. all women) in their place."
I’m no more right because I’m male than you are right because you’re female. You tossed out some supposed examples (that have been overused for years), which are easily refutable, so I called you on them. Yes, for brevity, only offered some of the empirical evidence that counter those claims. But, I have also seen the research that also serve to refute them.
Not providing cites, while an obvious omission on my part, is really the result of two things: Not having every reference at the ready when I’m typing (and needing to look them up), and the 4,096 character count limit that I’m frequently coming up against.
However, the references do exist, I need only do a quick search for them.
Well, start from where you did – the Wage Gap. Out of About 109,000 results (0.30 seconds), returned via Google Search, here’s a few from the top of the list:
The Wage Gap Myth
Or, better still, a report prepared for the US dept. of Labor An Analysis of Reasons for the Disparity in Wages Between Men and Women
Or, this excerpt from Diana Furchtgott-Roth in the Civil Rights Journal
Well, it’s just a start.
BTW, the reason I didn’t challenge you to back up your claims is that I’ve seem the biased and self-serving feminist dogma before. But, I’m certainly not preventing you from posting it again.
Cassie - ” so you do buy into it. The opposite of date rape always seems to be "real rape". That is in my opinion quite dreadful.”
ReplyDeleteNo. What I’m getting at is that if rape were to be used as means of oppression (i.e. raping those uppity women to put them in their place), it would be through random acts of date rape, but rather strategically planned out acts, most likely committed by stranger. [I should have termed them “stranger-rapes” to differentiate them from “date-rapes” – I simply failed to consider my use of terminology on that one. My apologies]
Cassie - ” I do 100% think that our society romanticises sexual assault and as a consequence encourage it as normal to heterosexual male, which I think is wrong to both men and women.”
I see no evidence of this going on amongst men (in general). There are perhaps some enclaves of such thinking (Fraternities come to mind), but I just don’t see it as wide spread. The closet thing I do see is seen in the romance novels so popular with women in which the desirable alpha-male forces himself on the heroine, at which point she realizes that she did really “want it” after all. But, please don’t blame us men for those.
Cassie - ” I back deviantone up on this one, there is definitely stigma surrounding being a rape victim and women are constantly being blamed, this is then internalised into self blame, which creates a lot of psychological problems for the victim.”
I believe women who been rape feel that stigma. But, things musty be a lot different down there. Here, if people do learn that a woman has been a victim, she will be given lots of care, sympathy, and understanding (the only exceptions I’ve observed coming from other women. I doubt their the ones who comprise this oppressive “patriarchy”).
Cassie - ” In no way should rape be referred to as "sex". Or even worse "being forced to have sex", that isn't what rape is and detracts from the harm it inflicts.”
Point taken. I apologize if my poor word choice has caused you discomfort or offense.
@Slwerner
ReplyDelete"No. What I’m getting at is that if rape were to be used as means of oppression (i.e. raping those uppity women to put them in their place), it would be through random acts of date rape, but rather strategically planned out acts, most likely committed by stranger."
I don't think anyone here is trying to describe rape as a terrorist action (although I am sure it can be).
"I see no evidence of this going on amongst men (in general). There are perhaps some enclaves of such thinking (Fraternities come to mind), but I just don’t see it as wide spread."
I was mostly referring to the media.
"I believe women who been rape feel that stigma. But, things musty be a lot different down there. Here, if people do learn that a woman has been a victim, she will be given lots of care, sympathy, and understanding (the only exceptions I’ve observed coming from other women. I doubt their the ones who comprise this oppressive “patriarchy”)."
I have experienced a lot of understanding myself, but also a lot of complete apathy. I think the point of a patriarchy is that everyone within that society comprises it.
"Point taken. I apologize if my poor word choice has caused you discomfort or offense"
Thanks for your apologies, I am still new to speaking about this openly so I may be a little sensitive. I hope you don't think I am pulling out a victim card to sway the argument. I bring it in only when I think it is relevant.
@Deviantone
No worries. Keep on arguing :)
Cassie - ” I hope you don't think I am pulling out a victim card to sway the argument. I bring it in only when I think it is relevant.”
ReplyDeleteNo, I didn’t even think of that angle. I just realized that my wording was insensitive to someone in your position.
As far as arguing on with Deviant One, I was busily putting together a list of links to relevant research when it suddenly struck me as a monumental waste of effort.
Gender-feminists like Deviant One are complete wed to this notion that men oppress women. Nothing I could proffer will ever sway her. So, I’ll spare you (and everyone else) the list of links.
In the end, I’m all for an individuals right to decide their own course of though and action. I don’t buy this idea of a controlling and oppressive “Patriarchy” (here, in the US, if anything, we are fast becoming a Matriarchy, given the proliferation of female-headed households and the disproportionate considerations, protections, and advantages given to women her). Things may be different in Australia, but here, the average women is hardly oppressed, and enjoys substantial advantage. If one were to randomly ask them to give an example of how they felt oppressed, the vast majority would be hard-pressed to come up with anything other than silly examples (like having to settle for a lower cost SUV because their husbands were being stingy).
But, as I retire from this debate, let me leave you with a few questions to ponder:
Do you, personally feel that you are oppressed by men (as a class)?
Is your potential for advancement (personally, professionally, socially, whatever) being impinged upon by men (individually, or as a class)?
Can you readily observe the expected results of the oppression of women amongst your female friends and acquaintances?
Can you point to any gains or advantages men you know are enjoying at the expense of women (as a class)?
Are women in your country not advancing in business, politics, and education?
So, what are the examples of this oppression by men upon women that you can detail?
It’s really just a set of rhetorical questions intended to have you consider, rather than except without question, this notion that men as a class are benefiting by oppressing women.
"
ReplyDeleteDo you, personally feel that you are oppressed by men (as a class)?
Is your potential for advancement (personally, professionally, socially, whatever) being impinged upon by men (individually, or as a class)?
Can you readily observe the expected results of the oppression of women amongst your female friends and acquaintances?
Can you point to any gains or advantages men you know are enjoying at the expense of women (as a class)?
Are women in your country not advancing in business, politics, and education?"
I have a one word answer for all those questions. Rape.
Of course, I’ll never convince you, as you desperately cling to these as articles of faith.
ReplyDeleteDitto. I, at least, can cite my sources, so I don't have to believe in it religiously.
But, as further, and more accurate research has been applied, it has been realized that the wage gap is much, much smaller than the data from two decades ago suggests. In fact, when comparing some occupations, controlling experience, it has been shown that women actually out-earn men.
I’m open to convincing, but I need facts and data. If you bring me the data, I will look at it and decide from there. Here are some facts about the wage gap:
Facts and figures on American earnings in 2008
Wage gap by the numbers
Wage gap by state
UK analysis done by UK government for 2008-2009
Male-Female income Disparity in the United States,
In all of these, it is true that the wage gap is slowly shrinking. However, it can be seen clearly that it is shrinking by less than 1-3% year, and it does still exists - if it is true (data, please?) that women earn more in some areas, they earn significantly less in others because the average is still FAR below "equal".
There is no “Rape Culture”. Throughout the Western World, rape as treated as the most serious of crimes, nearly equal to murder. Vast sums of money are spent on rape prevent, on special sex-crime police units, and on specialized prosecution for such crimes. Boy’s and young men are bombarded for an early age about the proper way to treat women and girls. Rape, real rape, is simply not tolerated. But, of course, the belief that it is tolerated, and even encouraged, is fundamental to extreme gender-feminist doctrine. So, you basically have no choice but to convince yourself of it, lack of any real evidence (not to mention copious evidence to the contrary) be damned!
Did you even read the article I linked? Because I don't see any other "evidence" being presented here but mine.
Here’s another one for you TRIGGER WARNING, RAPE
I would like to see your references to back up your claim that “there is no Rape Culture”.
Since you seen to have missed it, Rape Shield Laws are widely used to protect a woman who claims of have been raped (even those who are simply lying about it in an estimated 40% of reported cases). The real shaming happens to men accused, even those being falsely accused. They have their names released to the press, they find themselves scorned by those around them, they loose their jobs, some are attack, and a few are even killed – all based on no more than the accusation of a woman. Society, especially men, take the crime of rape that seriously.
References and evidence for your “lying in an estimated 40% of reported cases”, please.
Once again, I refer you to the article previously cited, and here’s some bonus articles.
Women who claim to have been raped are provided with substantial assistance, including counseling, special victim advocates to help them through the entire legal process, and even generous financial assistance. All of this is available even to those women who simply comes to regret the consensual sex she engaged in, and wished to recast it as rape to salvage her reputation or cover for her infidelity to another. Poor treatment, my ass!
ReplyDeleteOnce again
again not only me, but scholars and scientists just don’t agree with your assertations.
References, please?
Even if it were true that what you say is as common as you say it is, I have some questions for you:
Why do you think a woman would “consent” to sex, only to regret it later?
Why do you think she would feel ashamed, or need to “salvage” her reputation, if the sex was truly consensual and no pressure or outside forces and expectancies and judgements were involved?
And you cannot be serious about shaming treatment in DV. A woman need only contend that she “feels” threatened to see that the man is arrested and/or physically removed for her presence. And, like be accused of rape, the mark of shame absolutely accrues to him, and certainly not her.
Once again, myth debunked
And, what of this vague ”BASIC HUMAN RIGHT to bodily autonomy”? You mean like the right to have an abortion if she feels like it? Or, make the guy pay if she doesn’t? Just what do you mean her?
I was referring to things like public gropings, catcalling and other covert forms of sexual abuse, but abortion; ease of guilt-free access to does also fit that bill.
But, as I’m sure you noticed in the False Rape Society blog, there are also many instances wherein a women simply regrets the consensual sex she has engaged in, and decides to cry rape to cover for her own poor decisions. Notice the striking number of instance where women admit to having falsely claimed to have been raped when their own infidelities were in jeopardy of being discovered.
You argument here is based on a fallacy. Also, from the blog you cited:
“If rape was really so common, it wouldn’t be a crime” – what is this I do not even
Please see this breakdown of the facts pertaining to false rape and false accusations of DV.
My over-arching point was that rape simply is not a tool being actively used by men (as a class) to oppress women (as a class). There are some men who are rapists. They are truly evil men, who society right scorn. But, there are also women who rape. Lesbian rape is reported to be seldom reported, although quite common. But, as Eve Ensler contends, that’s “good rape”.
Like Cassie pointed out, I was referring to the effect. And there is no such thing “good rape”, “Bad rape”, “date rape”, “grey rape”, “real rape” distinctions, or at least there shouldn’t be. Rape is rape when there wasn’t a freely given “yes”. End. Of. Story.
But, what Deviant One seemed to be rather obviously implying was that rape victims were treated shamefully (i.e. call sluts, and blamed for bringing it upon themselves). There might be some instances of such (personally, the only times I’ve witnessed it happen, it came from other women, not men, BTW), there is certainly no systematic effort to shame women. To the contrary (here, anyway), they are given free counseling, financial assistance, and have victims advocates at their disposal through the legal process. Every effort is made to comfort and reassure them (even those who turn out to have been lying).
ReplyDeleteI answered this earlier, but I’d like to point out that women are very often tools of the patriarchy and system themselves, and that just because a woman is the one doing it, doesn’t make it worse (or better/more acceptable/correct) in any way, shape or form.
Actually, I say it in order to counter the idea put forth that the supposed Patriarchy is using rape to oppress. It was to demonstrate how society actually treats rape victims. And, BTW, I know a number of the counselors and victim advocates personally. I fully support giving aid and comfort to those who’ve been victimized. I do however refute the notion that we don’t care about he victims.
Rape is a by-product of patriarchy and patriarchal norms, seeing women as possessions, somehow “deserving” to be raped by what she wore, what she did in her sex life with other partners before, what she did allow with the rapist before. See: Rape Culture. And yes, I did link it again because I’m hoping that you’re really interested in debate and will, at the very least, read it, as I’ve read the meagre few links and references you’ve provided.
While this is a valid concern, I’d counter that for Deviant One’s claims to hold true, they must be true through the Western World.
What claims specifically are those? Because, not to speak on her behalf, but I read that Cassie was saying that they don’t have YOUR specific domestic violence legislation, which you seem upset with, in Australia.
As far as arguing on with Deviant One, I was busily putting together a list of links to relevant research when it suddenly struck me as a monumental waste of effort.
Gender-feminists like Deviant One are complete wed to this notion that men oppress women. Nothing I could proffer will ever sway her. So, I’ll spare you (and everyone else) the list of links.
Thanks for judging me, slwerner. You really proved many of my points in that.
I am very open to new thoughts and ideas regarding the reality I live, actually, but then, I already said that earlier.
In the end, I’m all for an individuals right to decide their own course of though and action. I don’t buy this idea of a controlling and oppressive “Patriarchy” (here, in the US, if anything, we are fast becoming a Matriarchy, given the proliferation of female-headed households and the disproportionate considerations, protections, and advantages given to women her).
I would like examples of this, please. I have given you numerous examples of how women are oppressed, you just choose to disbelieve them and make them off as “rubbish” (without proof, I might add) because they don’t form part of your experience as a man. That is part of your privilege.
@ Deviant one
ReplyDeleteThere was a study done on the frequency of FRA that showed a 41% false claim rate. (I have read all the studies on it I can find).
However I do not take that study seriously as it was performed in one geographical area, and only about 90 cases were taken into consideration, well I guess I will just link you to the study as the flaws are self evident.
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/jbs/maysession/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf
But, as I retire from this debate, let me leave you with a few questions to ponder:
ReplyDeleteDo you, personally feel that you are oppressed by men (as a class)?
Yes.
Is your potential for advancement (personally, professionally, socially, whatever) being impinged upon by men (individually, or as a class)?
Yes.
Can you readily observe the expected results of the oppression of women amongst your female friends and acquaintances?
Yes. I don’t know even one woman who does not have weight issues, issues with how she looks, issues with her sexuality, issues issues issues.
Can you point to any gains or advantages men you know are enjoying at the expense of women (as a class)?
Well, for one, men don’t generally believe, have to deal with, or even think much about this stuff, because IT’S NOT HAPPENING TO THEM.
Are women in your country not advancing in business, politics, and education? Yes they are, but there’s a long way to go to get to “equality”.
So, what are the examples of this oppression by men upon women that you can detail? I gave you many, many examples, yet they still weren’t believed. So what would more examples achieve?
I’ll try to be more civil, but these beliefs of hers, no matter how deeply she may hold them, are examples of where feminist doctrine ought to be open to criticisms and critical review.
I do hold them dear, you are quite correct because I have lived them, and I still do. Every day.
I grew up in a violent home. I was raped, shamed and disbelieved by the authorities and thus, my rape claim will probably count as one of your “false rape” stats, since I withdrew the charges after being told “It’s your word against his, and everyone knows that women lie about these things and men don’t” by not one, not three, not even FIVE people in authority.
And this was not an isolated event. Not by a long shot
Now please, tell me again how you rationalize saying that women as a group are not oppressed?
Thanks for the link, Cassie. I did come across it before and you are correct - the flaws in the methodology and interpretation of that study are very obvious.
ReplyDeleteAnd I feel like I'm spamming you, sorry! Damn this google 4090 character limit!
@Deviant one
ReplyDeleteDon't worry, I'm not annoyed, I am enjoying the debate :)