I have been thinking a lot about these two sides of the debate. I am often very hesitant in expressing my displeasure about things that affect me directly. Either I think I am not in a good place to be objective or I think people will discount my beliefs based on personal bias.
However having already addressed and had several responses to the radical feminist statement that all men are rapists I think I should take a look at the other side of the coin.
I have read through 100s of blogs about gender on the internet pretty thoroughly, so while I admit there are some gaps in my knowledge, I feel I have a finger on the pulse of what is happening here.
MRA seem to be concerned with showing that all women are liars especially when it comes to rape, they echo the myths that women commonly lie about rape for revenge and send forth the message that men should be careful who they sleep with lest the woman should find them less than desirable in the morning and cry rape. Let us put aside for a moment the fact that this is nothing new, it is in fact a pretty outdated way of thinking about rape. Let us also put aside any musings about why women may feel compelled to lie about their sex life and look at the deeper issue here.
This seems to show that MRA don't want to come to a harmonious agreement about gender issues they just want men on top where they have always been. When they examine the issue of FRA it is never looked at objectively, MRA only look at the fact that some accusations are false and address the legislation under that premise. However in looking at law and if it should in fact exist it seems to me that it is necessary to look at both sides. The occurence of rape and the occurence of false accusations of rape and decide from there what the best course of action is, because looking at this from only the angle that false rape accusations exist produces a very deep running bias. Let us not at this point get into the deeply flawed studies that are often quoted as showing that FRA is as common as real accusations or nearly so.
I however will not be silent on the issue that arises from speaking of only reported rapes. It is very convenient to leave the majority of rape victims out of the arguement if they don't prove your point isn't it? Just ignore them altogether, because nobody will notice, we are all too used to them being ignored anyway.
It is hard to explain why most rape, sexual abuse and dv victims don't come forward if the system is so biased towards them and condemns the man as guilty upon accusation.
It is hard to explain why there are false accusations in the first place, not that anyone seems to want to go past the assertion that it is due to women having a princess syndrome. Oh if only, if only I was in a society where my body was my own, where going out to a club or pub won't mean some guy taking more liberties then I like with my person. If only I could live in this fantasy world MRA have dreamed up for me.
This leads to the question of the suffering of the falsely accused man. This is still something I am mulling over. The most common serious illnesses (that I know of) associated with sexual abuse are post traumatic stress disorder and dissociative identity disorder. I think dissociative identity disorder is for the most part contributed to childhood trauma so doesn't really apply to men falsely accused. Post traumatic stress disorder is something however I can see arising from false imprisonment (or even justified imprisonment, but nobody seems bothered by that, that is a subject for another post I think).
False accusations of rape could tear apart families, ruin lives, waste valuble years, expose people to shame and humiliation. However is it the same thing as experiencing a situation where a person feels their life is in danger, where they are attacked, shamed and humiliated for amusement and fun? I am not so certain.
I have also been on MRA blogs where there are names floating around of men who have killed themselves because of this, which I admit is horrible, the thought of anyone killing themselves fills me with dread and horror. Rape victims on the other hand don't tend to be known by name, or have cases that can be commented on due to the utter normality of a suicide due to issues caused by rape or sexual abuse. It occurs to me that it should be much easier to find out how men are effected by FRA then women affected by rape on a case by case basis as the names of the accused are known while women are anonymous. Why then is it not so shocking to think about a woman killing herself due to rape as it is to think of a man killing himself due to being accused of rape? It seems to be seen as pretty much acceptable that a raped woman would commit suicide (who would want to live after being defiled like that anyway right?). Her worth gone with her purity. When a man's dignity is challenged however it is a different story.
Another point of frustration is the trend I see to want to convict women who falsely accuse men of rape on the same level as rapists. I state on every page I see (with very little success) that many things must come into play when passing legislation. I reject the idea that it would be fair for women who falsely accuse men of rape to serve the same sentence as rapists, this is completely irrational, I can't even figure out the logic behind this kind of thinking. Let us begin with the fact that they are different crimes, yes different crimes deserve different punishment. These must also be taken into consideration-
Punishment
Safety of society
Safety of the victim
Justice for the victim
Rehabilitation for the criminal
Deterrent for future criminals of this sort
Yes, MRAs blind desire for females to suffer as much as males has led them to the illogical thinking they abhor. I am not saying women (and men) shouldn't be punished for false accusations, but lets actually look at it in a rational way. Firstly do women who falsely accuse deserve to be punished? Well to me it seems they should be, but to what degree? Is society safe from these women? Do they commonly reoffend? Is the victim protected from further victimisation? Has justice been brought about on behalf of the victim? Can they be rehabilitated? What therapy is useful? Are there many criminals of this kind and if there is does punishment act as a deterrent for this crime? Punishment just for the sake of punishment is barbaric, they deserve hurt because they hurt someone else, has been shown to be a flawed way of thinking, and isn't useful in application to the real world. Noses out of the bible for a few moments people.
Let us on the other hand consider the crime of rape. Well I think it is obvious rapists are deserving of some punishment, what punishment is very much open to debate, I don't think it is relevant to get into it at this stage. It has been shown again and again that society is not safe from people with a tendency to abuse, it is in their mentalities and embedded within their various mental instabilities. Is justice ever achieved for rape victims? Very rarely in my opinion. Can rapists be rehabilitated? I am very confused about the answer to that one myself, any speculation would be appreciated. There are significantly higher numbers it seems of abusers then false rape accusers. I am also unsure it would be a useful deterrent as it seems to be a crime of passion, more than premeditated. Very few of these legal issues about rapists and false accusers seem to be discussed or even taken into consideration by the MRAs and their supporters.
Another thought I am swirling around in this head of mine is the fact that women seem to often show remorse for their accusations. As the MRAs adamantly claim in the flawed study where 41% of rape claims were shown to be false, it came about as a result of confessions. I haven't heard of many (any?) rapists who turned themselves in and left themselves at the mercy of the justice system in order to spare their victim more suffering.
Basically the conclusion I have come to in writing this entry is that rape and FRA are completely different issues that should never be compared to each other, they have very little in common other then on the surface appearing to show gender bias. As usual however when one delves a little deeper the flaws become apparent and the arguement illogical.
Stick to comparing rape of men to rape of women, but even in that comparison the flaws are many, perhaps don't compare at all, and just work on the issues in a way that doesn't try to make one side out to be evil. Yes, I mean statements like these, that are just loaded pointless insults
MRA states: Feminists always interfere in MRA business by saying "what about the womminz"
Radical feminist states: MRA always intefere in feminist business by saying "what about the meeeeenz"
Both these statements fill me with disgust, and show a deep bias in those who use these as a defence. I have a very strange idea, support your views instead of rejecting an issue based on gender, that is the very thing we should be fighting against.
A helpful response to "All men are rapists" is not in fact "All women are liars". Will people ever see the hate behind these generalised type of statements and the hurt they cause?
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Hi Cassie. I'm a bit ashamed to admit this, but I've been avoiding this post. Ironically because I enjoy this site and what you are doing here. I love that you are bravely addressing this issue. I have not seen it addressed like this elsewhere, despite my readings on Radfem and MRA sites.
ReplyDeleteMaybe because it takes neutrality and willingness to examine the various pieces and those elements are often lacking in those places.
This is a topic I was somewhat dreading coming up as I tend to walk a line here that is often seen as unacceptable by both feminist and MRA sites, though I get confused as to why.
I was concerned that by responding to this at all, I might again find rejection. Not that that stops me, just delays me a bit.
The issues seem pretty straightforward to me and yet I see it's an area that creates line-drawing, hostility and refusal to contemplate the "others" viewpoint.
I believe that both rape and false reporting are significant crimes, in terms of number, not degree.
I believe that combating both are NOT mutually exclusive, though I see feminists and MRA's painting that picture. Oddly, I see MRA's doing it less so. Many of them will state very clearly that rape happens, it's horrible and needs to be stopped.
They also state, and I believe this, that stopping false accusations will make it EASIER for women to step forward when they are raped, safer in the knowledge that they will be believed.
Most of the feminist sites seem to simply dismiss the topic of false rape reporting as unworthy of consideration. I truly fail to understand this. I see some say, "Well, yes, it's horrible for anyone to be accused of something they didn't do, but compared to RAPE, it's inconsequential." And that's as far as it goes.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why a need to compare the two.
I DO understand the idea that if I have a blog/site dedicated to a particular position, that I want to stay focused on that position. So, I would be less likely to spend time, for example, discussing false rape if my focus is on real rape and the factors affecting it, and vice versa. But, as you said, this does not mean tearing down an unrelated position to help make your own.
We do not know the numbers of unreported rape. That is a fact.
I speculate that it is high, based on a number of societal factors involving the shame of loss of "purity," and fear of not being believed. Both of these are starting places that branch out into a myriad of sub-factors. I also base this on the many anonymous surveys that have been conducted over the years.
The MRA sites will argue how rape is defined and how people answer based on that, but, even taking that into account, the numbers are very high.
False rape accusations happen. This is also fact. In exactly the numbers they do, since there is no such thing as an unreported false rape.
I think the MRA sites have it right here when discussing underlying factors. Motivations including revenge, the same "purity loss" shame (only applied in another direction by accusing to cover it up). I only recently found that some countries provided financial compensation for victims of crime which creates another motivator to lie.
I am more concerned with prevention than punishment as a rule. I'd rather work towards changing attitudes that lead to rape (Yes Means Yes) than deal with the horror of what to do after.
However, I will venture that rape or any type of assault is higher on the violation spectrum than is lying about something, even when the lie causes grievous harm.
The first is direct, the second is unknowable in a sense. A person who lies cannot know the path that lie will take.
It also must be noted that many women make false accusations without naming someone. It doesn't make it okay at all, but these cases are more to cover oneself without intentionally causing harm to another.
I do think that false accusations need to be treated more seriously by law enforcement and penalties should be higher than they are.
Equal to that for rape? No.
HOWEVER, when the false accuser is believed, the case goes to trial and there is conviction, my opinion changes slightly. Now we have actual harm coming to someone from that lie and it is KNOWN by the false accuser that they created it.
This is when I believe penalties must be far higher than they are. I understand that there are no penalties, beyond a personal lawsuit perhaps, in many areas.
The bottom line for me is my own failure to understand the lack of mutual support on these issues. Leave the "what about the ...enz?" aside and address these significant issues as people dedicated to one goal:
Less Harm.
I attempted to make this argument on a much more individual level regarding a particular case and was roundly shouted down on a site dedicated to examining rape and its factors.
I was labeled a troll and misogynist (strange, I know) there. That's part of my shyness now about walking this path.
There's so much to be said on these topics, but I am hoping others will jump in.
Thanks for a forum to do so.
(Wow, my first time busting the 4096 ceiling!)
I think comparing the rape of men to the rape of women is faulty. Men and women are, in my eyes, fundamentally different.
ReplyDeleteMy theory is that if a woman and a man were raped under the same circumstances, they would have completely different experiences of it, likely with the woman experiencing higher levels of trauma.
Men, for that matter, are (for a fact) significantly traumatized by rape-slander, in ways that a woman likely would not be if she were in his shoes - what comes to mind is the unlikelihood of that woman to lose all trust in her circle of friends, loss of her job, etc. These commonly happen to men.
That's an interesting stance, Anon. Could you say more about that?
ReplyDeleteIt seems to make sense on the face of it, but I'd like to know the basis of your ideas.
Well, there's a theory about the energetic / sexual body that women give energy from their hearts and men give energy from their penises. This comes from stuff in tantra, yoga, meridians, and all that really cool eastern energy stuff.
ReplyDeleteIn this theory, when a man and woman are sexual, the man gives energy from his penis, and the woman takes in the energy her vagina. This energy makes an impression that can vary depending on the man's energy.
The woman gives emotional energy out from her heart or her chest, and the man receives that emotional energy, taking it in.
OK, so what?
The context I learned about this in was a therapeutic one at a workshop. The facilitator said that men can get emotionally raped, with comparable impact as when a woman gets sexually raped, because of the different ways men and women receive energy in their bodies.
He put forth that men's work more often involves release of pent-up emotions, and for women, often "sexual healing" a la Marvin Gaye is more helpful.
I've heard talk of "eye-rape" by feminists. This obviously must be a somewhat real (though shaky) phenomenon. Our energies impact each other subtly. The energetic imprints of emotional or sexual rape aren't usually formed from a session of intercourse, but mostly earlier in childhood (by many people's best guesses) although they can get tugged at by "eye-rape" or for me personally, (a man) my emotional buttons get pushed by being humiliated / ridiculed.
So these imprints often get formed in childhood, but truly traumatic events can alter these significantly, like rape (especially for women) and the rape-slander of a false accusation (especially for men).
-------
Note: this is part of my attempt to piece together the whole puzzle of what it is to be human, to be a man, to be alive. I am grossly generalizing, and I know that. For me personally, the generalizations help me make sense of the world.
I am also not 100 percent sure of everything that I said. It is my best guess, but I saw a connect-the-dots moment when I heard that energetic impacts are fundamentally different based on gender.
For instance, the article on FRS that discussed that the notion of a rape culture about power and not sex stemmed from a men's prison. I think rape is different for men than it is for women. Additionally, emotion must be different for men and women as well.
Does this answer your question? I like that we're discussing it.
"It seems to make sense on the face of it, but I'd like to know the basis of your ideas."
ReplyDeleteIt seems like a steaming heap of male privilege to me, but then I'm not as nice as "social worker". Maybe that's why I'm not a social worker.
Hmm I don't think law should be based on something like this "energy" theory you are describing.
ReplyDeleteThanks everyone for posting though! Thanks Social Worker for getting past your shyness. You will never be shut down on this site as long as you don't get nasty. :)
'energy' and 'privilege', these are very useful words. It is a shame that they are so often abused.
ReplyDeleteEnergy Theory Anon:
ReplyDeleteI read through your post several times and, while I get the basic concepts, I don't understand its relevance to rape. It's not a theory I'm at all familiar with (and I am familiar with a number having to do with sexual relations). Is there a reference you can direct us to?
I agree with Cassie that it's nothing to base law on, not that I see you suggesting that.
Well the original post was about law, I was hoping that this theory had some relevance to the topic haha.
ReplyDeleteWell the original post was about law, I was hoping that this theory had some relevance to the topic haha.
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna say, not so much.
It seems like a steaming heap of male privilege to me, but then I'm not as nice as "social worker". Maybe that's why I'm not a social worker.
Yay me??
The other day, I was passing walking down the stairs in my university and I passed by the Women's Center. Now I personally believe that men and women should be treated equally in the work force. I think that just because you don't have a penis, your sallary shouldn't be 25% less.
ReplyDeleteAnyway so I was walking down the stairs and I saw an article, and being curious I thought "Hey why not, I'll check it out. I always wondered what they talked about in women Centers (Being a man that is)"
And I read the article...and it litirarly said "Men should not go out after 8pm because they're rapists." ...Now. Being a man, I feel..Well very insulted. I also tend to have anger managment issues. A statement like that, really provoked me.
So, let's say...A college student, similar to me...was...less rational. Then let's say he read that article. Don't you think, there is a chance that he might be sitting in his cave at home, plotting in anger? I mean that article was really offensive.
And the way young women are dressing in these days, especially in the summer and the night life, Isn't going to help -AT ALL.
To that I would say you are a rape apologist. Getting angry about a sign and raping someone because of that sign is in no way rational or a good reason for doing so. If that is the response you have I would encourage you to seek professional help. Although there is no evidence to suggest that anyone would react that way. Someone who would take that sign as a reason to rape would already be likely to rape, so it is irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteAs to the clothing argument, that is such a cliche. It has been proven that rape has nothing to do with clothing, people are raped because there is a rapist nearby and they sieze on an opportunity. Not because they wear a low cut shirt. People being sexually attractive is also not a good reason to rape anyway.
You are trying to excuse a dreadful crime. I would ask you to rethink your position.
Having thought for a little while about that sign I can come provide you with the answer for why it was there I think.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they were saying all men are rapists at all but rather they were being ironic. Women are told not to go out after dark because they may be raped. The women's centre was trying to bring your attention to how ridiculous it is. You missed the point completely. You reacted in a purely selfish way. Why not stop and care about rape victims? Rather then sayng poor me I am a man so they think I rape. Who cares.
Rape, not as an act perpetrated & suffered, but as an "issue" is what matters to the Law & all other interested parties ( interested parties inevitably meaning feminists & women's groups...for it is they who have taken "ownership" of rape ). It's therefore next to impossible to expect a rational, mature or compassionate discourse on the subject, let alone any kind of justice for the victims of rape.
ReplyDeleteThe law is only interested in protecting itself, ie. upholding the Law. Feminists are only interested in upholding rape itself as a feminist issue. Meanwhile men ( and women ) will continue to rape & it will be a contest between the Law & the interested parties as to who wins.
Easy enough to ask men to think about the victims of rape rather than be concerned about the promotion of ideas that give rise to headlines like "All men are rapists"...why assume that men DON'T care about rape victims?
If the law isn't working as it should then address the LAW, don't address men in general. All men in general do not rape women, some men in particular do. Address the law whilst addressing the issue of how men are regularly portrayed by feminists as "a problem". RAPE & the Law is "the problem"...not men & not women.
"Having thought for a little while about that sign I can come provide you with the answer for why it was there I think.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they were saying all men are rapists at all but rather they were being ironic. Women are told not to go out after dark because they may be raped. The women's centre was trying to bring your attention to how ridiculous it is. You missed the point completely. You reacted in a purely selfish way. Why not stop and care about rape victims? Rather then sayng poor me I am a man so they think I rape. Who cares."
So a sign that reads "Women should not go out after 8pm because they're all expecting to be raped" would be as acceptable to a Women's Group? Would they see the humour in it?
I'm sorry but I find the statement "all men are rapists" in WHATEVER context to be degrading, inhumane & belittling to both men & women. It's meant "humourously"...who is supposed to FIND the humour in it? Rape is not a humourous issue EVER, neither for women nor men.
The prevalence of "all men are rapists" headlines ( and they ARE prevalent & go largely unchallenged ) is an affront to humanity...not men. I don't consider myself a "rapist in waiting", nor should any man. I don't think any rational, mature & compassionate woman does either. What I do think however is that women are increasingly taking the piss where men are concerned & it is set to backfire spectacularly.
Men will take women at their word one day...you don't need us, don't want us, don't value us...that's fine. You'll get it all back in spades.
When did I assume that men don't care?
ReplyDeleteWhere did I say it was humourous? I don't think you understand irony or humour, maybe do a bit of research on the subject.
you have spectacularly missed the point because as I said you are too busy thinking about your own precious ego to consider the implications.
"I'm sorry but I find the statement "all men are rapists" in WHATEVER context to be degrading, inhumane & belittling to both men & women."
If you come from the premise that all women are potentially rape victims then it would stand to reason that all men are potential rapists. Which I don't agree with, but it seems to me as I stated before that this is just a play on a cliche, that women are told actually. If a woman goes out after 8pm and is raped it is her fault because she was walking around in the dark. This sign is attempting to put the blame back on the rapist.
My view on that is that it is an interesting approach, but I blame society for rape not men. However it does seem to be largely a comment on societal reactions to rape rather then the issue of rape itself.
I think you have been infected by the MRA clan. Men's rights activism is merely reactionary, it isn't a useful movement in the least. They seek to teach men that they are all victims. It is funny how most MRAs seem to be heterosexual white males. The least oppressed of them all. Baseless self righteous anger is all that sustains them.
Their claim that women are trying to say they don't need men seems to largely centre around the family unit. They appear to see their now lack of dominant role in family as an insult to their masculinity. I do't care, women have as much right to adopt the dominant role as men.
In that way no I don't need men, I don't need a man to provide me with financial support, I don't need a man to provide me with self esteem either. MRA can't stand that women can CHOOSE when they need men just as men can choose when they need women.
MRA is just where those with a bruised ego go to shelter.
All men used to need women for was sex. That has changed, but certain groups who would love to see women returned to that humble subservient role get pretty angry when we are not forced into it.
In response to your last statement I will just say I value all men, even rapists, so I don't know where you are getting your information from.
As a side note, if you want to make claims that women's rights groups are incapable of maturity and rational thought I would ask several questions.
ReplyDeleteFirst question; Why pay attention to immature, irrational people? Second question, explain to me why this isn't straight up sexism on your part.
If you cannot answer how this isn't sexism then I thank you for your interest in my blog and for bringing my attention to this issue but I would ask you to move along now. Given your status as a rape apologist I am inclined to think you cannot
women's rights groups have actually made a good contribution in getting help to victims of abuse, I doubt you can support your position.
I agree with the opinion that rape certainly can be a worse crime then false rape accusations. And that it is very wrong for there to be virtually no punishment for false accusations.
ReplyDeleteI think Dom's comment might be poorly worded but does have some good points. These slogans and posters making these sorts of generalisations are nothing but harmful to any sort of movement that wises to change society's view on rape. Take a young man in Dom's position for example, lets assume he is a pretty average guy who hasn't given too much thought to the issue of sexual assault one way or the other. A group wishes to teach him about it and he is receptive. So the group launches into the all-too-common 'You are likely a rapist'. This instantly creates animosity. Now I am not saying this is how all workshops operate, or that rape is the result of it, of course not. But personally I feel that society wont pay the issue the attention it deserves until people stop associating rape awareness with male blame and child abuse as only being done by priests.
Rape is a difficult issue to talk about in society. Only very recently is it not a fringe position to think that it is a serious problem. However it is even harder to talk about rape in the non traditional sense (False accusations, child abuse, homosexual rape, rape with a male victim, etc.). Its a shame we, as society, can't have a frank discussion on all these issues without getting into a heated argument and personal insults over which one is worse. They are ALL problems and are not mutually exclusive.
Just to be sure, I AM IN NO WAY JUSTIFYING SEXUAL ASSAULT IN ANY CASE!
Kit i respect your view and mostly agree with it.
ReplyDeleteI don't support putting such signs around I was just giving reasons I thought it may be there.
However when you have a guy like dom who asserts that men can't help themselves but to rape a sexily dressed woman, well he is a sexist pig. His reaction to the sign is largely irrelevant as he does the exact same thing the sign does. Instead of blaming men though he blames women. Victims are not to blame for being assaulted. It makes me sick to see that people still think like that and that they try to present themselves as reasonable and concerned with the issue of rape. They just don't care or they would educate themselves and not spread harmful cliches.
furthermore he states that women no longer seem to need men so they will ge what they ultimately deserve. I am quite sure I do not spread forth a man hating ideology. How is hating all women because his ego is bruised any different to hating all men because of the prevalence of sexual assault. Besides the obvious fact that hating all men because of the normality of sexual assault actually has a basis in reality.
ReplyDeleteI know I'm coming into this several months late, but just wanted to add another man's perspective...
ReplyDelete@Social worker. I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you said, with the exception of this quote...
"However, I will venture that rape or any type of assault is higher on the violation spectrum than is lying about something, even when the lie causes grievous harm.
The first is direct, the second is unknowable in a sense. A person who lies cannot know the path that lie will take."
While I don't disagree with the two crimes being different on the violation spectrum, or even that rape is higher, I think excusing the violation on FRA victims because "A person who lies cannot know the path that lie will take." is wholly unfair to the victim. Everyone in today's society knows full well an accusation of rape is going to result in devastation to every aspect of the accused's life, from personal/relationships, to career, to social life, etc. To claim you don't know this would happen would be ignorant. To then excuse it, in part or in whole, for that reason, would be akin to trying to partially excuse a true rapist because the rapist couldn't know if the victim would get pregnant, or spiral into a suicidal depression... IE, it's inexcusable. (and people, please don't take this out of context, I am not trying to excuse rape, I am simply asking that those whole falsely accuse aren't ether.).
Another reason MRA's discuss rape (not just FRA) is also due to the perception of rape as a man only crime. it is not. It may be predominantly male perpetrated (I can't be certain, men are encouraged against reporting it due to social stigma), but that does not mean the men are not also victims, and those victims should not be swept under the carpet. These are not MRA vs Feminist concerns, but rather, MRA vs Society, but it is often opposed by feminists (These are generalizations. Some feminists don't oppose these concerns, some MRA's motives and means aren't acceptable, but by and large, this is the perception). this dismissal of men as victims, combined with the attempted dismissal of men as victims of FRA, serves to continue the perception that the topic of rape is only ever harmful to women, and to demonize men unfairly.
As to “the bias in rape perception”, one of my favourite examples I use when discussing the topic (not a common topic of discussion, but it has come up), is the movie 40 days and 40 nights. In this movie, a man contends himself to not have sex for 40 days. He resolves himself not to be the sex crazed player that most women claim and complain men are, and the result of this is a plethora of women trying to make him fail at this task (even before they know of the betting pool against him). during this time he establishes a relationship that remains non sexual, and becomes very important to him.
On the last night, only hours before his goal is achieved, his ex girlfriend, whom he rejected openly, sneaks into his apartment, and has sex with him while he slept. By ANY definition of the word, this is rape. but what are the results of this action? She win’s the pool, earning something like $10,000, he’s claimed to have failed his goal (IE, men can’t go 40 day’s without sex), and his new girlfriend accuses him of cheating on her, until she finally forgives him and they are happy, end movie… Yes, that’s right, it was HE that was raped and SHE, the girlfriend, was the victim. It was HE, the one who was raped, that needed to be forgiven. how’s that for bias of perception. This should not be acceptable, but not only was it accepted, it was the punchline of this romantic comedy. that is why ALL victims of rape need to be acknowledged, regardless of the gender and their numbers
I think in the case of FRA it is a lot different though, because a case can be made that the person doesn't know the consequences of the accusation. Most rape accusations never make it anywhere near court for example, so if someone accused someone of rape and it did make it to court this would be fairly surprising to all involved even if was true.
ReplyDeleteSecondly there is more of an option to withdraw as people seem to do, you can't really half rape someone.
Thirdly, FRA is a completely different crime to rape, stop comparing them really, it isn't useful.
fourthly, no one eer said that all victims of rape shouldn't be acknowledged but unless you want to try to make a case against it being for the most part a crime against women this is largely irrelevant.
I agree in regards to the example of 40 days and nights that it is gross, I found it gross in wedding crashers as well when the man was raped, I don't find it particularly light hearted or funny, I would ask you to be clear about the point you are trying to make.
Your claims that it is MRA vs society I see as largely unsupportable. MRA consistently asserts a flawed, bigoted view of society, they in effect end up opposing nothing. That is why the MRA movement is doomed to failure. They also seek to alienate women terming things in ways such as "the pussy pass". Showing such a lack of respect to women just makes their real motivations clear, they have no interest in giving women any consideration.
"Thirdly, FRA is a completely different crime to rape, stop comparing them really, it isn't useful."
ReplyDeleteBut it is a crime, and currently, it isn't treated as such.
As to your view of the MRA... your assumptions apply equally to feminist movements, if you don't examine them with a starting bias. as for the pussy pass. While it may be vulger, it is still nothing compared to the accusation that all men are rapists, or that the actions of Lepine on Dec6th are representative of all men's hatred and oppression of women. with such despicable accusations being levied, and worst yet, surviving as long as they have (all men are rapists is almost 35 years old. all men hate women and want to kill them is over 20), while completely marginalizing their sacrifices and heroics (when was the last time a remembrance ceremony didn't discuss the men "and women" that gave their lives and limbs defending our freedoms...20 million men in WW1 died, equal number injured. 25million in WW2 died, same injured. and now we're told that women suffered more from those wars)... can you blame men for being angry.
Yes some of the criticisms do apply to the current feminism movement. Which is why I choose to align myself politically with socialism.
ReplyDeleteI don't like it when feminists say that all men are rapists and I don't like it when men call things a "pussy pass". So what is your criticism of my politics exactly? I made it clear in this post I don't like some assertions made by feminism but you insist on accusing me of having those thoughts against men. Except to re-iterate again that I do not think all men are rapists I don't know how else to respond.
I am not going to respond to your assertions about war over and over either.
Sorry to be commenting on such an old post but I really liked this post. You have very good ideas about these things. Another blogger wrote about MRAs in a way you may enjoy (don't be put off by the URL, it's actually a very well-written post):
ReplyDeletehttp://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2008/03/11/crybabies-fucking-crybabies/
But the idea that any feminist ever said all sex is rape is a myth. Andrea Dworkin had said something similar in her book and it was taken entirely out of context. She hadn't actually meant that at all. In fact I believe it was partially Hustler who began that myth circulating around. No feminists have ever said that all sex is rape, it's a patently false claim.
As well I have never heard a feminist dismiss false rape accusations as OK or acceptable. Generally people only talk about it in the sense that according to the official senate hearing on rape, FRA happen for around 2-5% of all rape accusations, which is no higher than for any other violent crime. This means no "special consideration" is actually really possible for them, since in order to reduce them, you would have to somehow make the crime of rape different or reduce all reported rapes. So basically, it's terrible when it happens but unless the ENTIRE legal system changes to reduce false accusations of any crime, there's very little than can be done other than to prevent any rape accusations from being brought up.
It is nice to see a fair comparison on these hateful but all to common statements. However as a man that has been falsely accused of not just rape but child abuse, (thank God for my children standing up for me). It is incredibly damaging and it does violate you. Even after you are exonerated many people choose to regard you as guilty. Lying by itself seems minor but lying so that a man looses his job and has to face being treated like a pariah in his own community is horrible. Lucky for me I did not go to prison where I might have been raped. Imagine the cases where a FRA victim spends several years in prison getting raped.
ReplyDeleteIn my case I was found innocent. My accuser is my ex wife. I proved without a doubt she was lying. she still won custody of our children. She paid no fine for her lies and got only a slight reprimand from the judge. The Judge said about me "This man is not dangerous to anyone." Yet she is rewarded with custody and child support.
No doubt at all that rape is a horrendous and life damaging thing. I also have the unfortunate claim of being molested as a child. I was molested by a baby sitter and relative from age 6-9. This happens way more often than you think and only through the anonymous nature of the net do I speak about it. This and my experience with my divorce makes it very difficult to trust women in close relationships.
I hold it in my heart that there are honest women out there but I truly believe that our culture teaches girls to lie from day one. Make up heels, hair extensions, push up bras, hair color are all innocent lies. Such things are why the story of Ruth is so interesting. Yes a bible reference. She was beautiful with out makeup.
I am sorry the family court system appears biased towards women, this is actually due to oppression of women. We are viewed as the nurturers and caregivers, this results in us providing free of charge most of the child care, most of the aged care. Do you object to this? OR do you only object to women put in this role when it hurts you directly?
ReplyDeleteHave you tried to be a woman applying for a job without wearing make up, without wearing heels?
What about going out to dinner without make up on? People view women who do this as apathetic towards their appearance, as unfeminine.
You want to have ideals of what the feminine is? Well that doesn't erase what society demands.
If I go to a job make up without make up without heels, guess who is going to get the job? Not me!
It is not a lie women choose, it is a lie we are forced into. Don't you forget it!
-A socialist open to criticism.