Stubborn Refusal of Facts
When they encounter someone who calls themselves a feminist, the woman bashing is unleashed and considered justified. A view asserted by a feminist even if it is in agreeance with them is completely disregarded and instead, if they aren't in a good position to censor the immediate response is to talk over the top of that feminist with the statement "you're sexist". This seems to occur often in the absence of any evidence for misandry. It is interesting and creates the first article for why MRM will just chase it's own tail until humanity is extinct. They are so hell bent on labelling feminism as misandry that they refuse to admit that it is possible to believe in gender equality and not in fact hate men or hate women (although they aren't good at demonstrating that). What a waste of time it is to throw unfounded accusations at people when the actual issues could be discussed.
Misogyny
They reject the notion of MRA women playing a major role in their organisation, a few seem to reject the idea of women playing any role in the MRA movement. This one should be self explanatory. Women make up over half the population, a movement is not likely to succeed with half its potential supporters thrown out. This leads into the next point.
Hypocrisy
While claiming to be opposed to bigotry, they purposefully perpetuate misogynist sentiments. This undermines their position as it becomes the exact same position they accuse feminists of having.
Traditional Gender Roles
They are the champions of traditional gender roles. Longing for the good ole days where women did as they were told and referring to women only as "a good woman" if she wants to live out the gender roles of old. No matter there are many good reasons for smashing "traditional" gender roles and the "traditional" marriage. Marriage is the heart of bigotry, and sorry MRA it is slowly filtering out of society, nothing you can do to ruin peoples happiness and freedom.
Intellectual dishonesty
Quoting statistics from one stand alone study with flawed methodology as though it was gospel. Yes I am referring in particular to the study allegedly proving that 41% rape accusations are false. Give it up, people can see through these lies.
Bitterness
They allow their bitterness to impact on their political leanings. They refer to feminist men as manginas and yet they are the ones acting like the stereotypical woman, with their hysteria and minimised ability to think about things rationally. This was demonstrated on one site where a MRA asserted that "we can start considering gender equality when as many women as men have died in war." What if a feminist said "We can start thinking about gender equality when as many men as women have died in child birth." Yeah it doesn't make the slightest amount of sense.
Equality in Suffering
Rather then seeing an organisation as a source for making the lives of people better the MRA see their role in making people suffer as much as they allegedly have. That is just gross.
Apolitical
All these things result in them having a stance that is largely apolitical, where it isn't just plain confused, backwards or nonsensical.
Sorry guys, you just aren't going to succeed this way. Shape up.
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I like the name change (socialist). I agree with most of what you say as it is the negative attitude I object to versus the stated goal. Meaning what we want versus HOW we get there. And, you're right that wallowing in anger and bitterness will not advance any cause, much less MRM.
ReplyDeleteWhere I have some trouble with your take is that much of the same can be said of a large part of the women's movement, at least on the net. If you substitute feminism for MRM, I could easily see this posted on another site.
I simply object to any group vilifying another to make their point. It isn't necessary and it brings everyone down.
I don't know. The more I read on various sites, the more I feel like it's all this marginalized thing with us throwing rocks at each other. The rest of the non-gender-issued world goes about their business with points of view that harm and help in various degrees. Sometimes I think it's better to go on regular news sites (CNN, local tv and newspaper sites) and air my comments there. At least there's a hope that I may introduce a more sensitive way of looking at women and the issues I care about to people unfamiliar with feminist writings and pov.
Thanks social worker. Are you a socialist?
ReplyDeleteYes I completely agree with you, the feminist blogosphere is equally disturbing to me, which is why I created this blog in the first place. I was hoping to encourage actual discussion without pathetic insulting and trying to cause offense to people because their views don't directly align.
I do hope that both the MRA and feminist presence on the internet are not indicative of the actual movements.
I think as with most things bloggy, that irl people and movements tend to temper the rhetoric somewhat.
ReplyDeleteWhen I hear spokespeople for either "side" (albeit far more feminist pov), it sounds very different from what I read and what we say to one another privately.
Am I a socialist? Hmmm, ideologically perhaps, thought I certainly can't claim to be living truly socialist values or fighting for them.
I don't know how the political process is in Australia, but in U.S., I choose to ally with the Democratic party as more of my agenda (even with the more moderate values I don't like)is met. The Socialist party here, as all 3rd parties, is marginalized to the extent that I feel no power in supporting the candidates. I have a certain amount of guilt with this, as I know that I become part of what makes them marginalized. I have voted 3rd party on occasion in smaller elections, when I really saw an opportunity for that candidate to move forward.
Does that answer? Too vague?
Haha you are a victim of the "lesser of two evils" mentality.
ReplyDeleteI always go for the 3rd option.
Yep, that's me. The devil I know...
ReplyDeletewhich in my opinion is a pretty good devil.
I generally agree with the Democratic position; it just doesn't always go far enough.
First off: I love your blog. You seem to be the first regular feminist* that is open to criticism and is open to speaking with MRAs! YAY! ^_^
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I do agree with the gist of this post. Many men in the MRM are indeed bitter and they mix the personal with the political(which isn't good at all.)
"Yes I am referring in particular to the study allegedly proving that 41% rape accusations are false. "
Much of this has to do with how you define the term “false accusation” as it is used to describe rape accusations. Just like the term “rape” can be fairly applied to a variety of situations, the term “false accusation” can also be applied to a variety of situations.
So as a result, a lot of the variance in statistics is related to how the authors define “false accusation,” combined in some circumstances with how the authors define “rape.” Since those definitions are apparent only if you read the papers in question (and only if each paper discloses them fairly), then the blogosphere “war of the summary quotes” tends to pit apples against oranges.
To illustrate with two common examples:
1) If you define FA as “an accuser knowingly lies to the police in order to attempt to wrongfully convict the defendant” you will get a fairly low %age of people doing that for rape. I have no idea how you would measure this, though i suspect it may be close to the 2-8%.
2) If you define FA as “an accuser makes a police report believing she was raped; however, the accuser’s report of the conduct does not meet the criteria for legal rape” then you will obviously get a much higher percentage of people. Since rape laws are quite stringent and most people don’t really understand them, it is plausible that this may be close to the 50% which some folks cite.
Absent a definition of what “false” is (and, in some cases, what “rape” is) then the argument is pointless. It’s mostly a semantic issue.
*I do identify as a ifeminist and MRA and I realize that there are normal regualar feminists that fight for genuine equality, I never had the oppurtunity to speak with one. I'm happy that I found this blog. Consider it bookmarked. :-)
Interesting perspective. The term rape is definitely ambiguous, that no one can deny.
ReplyDeleteHowever I disagree with your assertion that not having enough evidence to go to court counts as FRA (either to me or to the MRA). This is quite common. It is also not indicative of whether the person is lying or not, as enough evidence to possibly get a conviction in rape is hard to come by.
In the MRA forums FRA is ALWAYS described as a malicious intent to harm someone. Your second point is then irrelevant as it cannot possibly come under that descriptor of FRA. Which is part of my issue with how they go about things, they would like to paint that as sexism towards men without knowing guilt.
What does being an ifeminist and MRA mean exactly? Also are you accepted into either of the respective blogospheres?
Thanks for your input, I look forward to much more.
@Socialist
ReplyDeleteI'll take your point. I agree for the most part.
To answer your questions:As an ifeminist and MRA it means that I believe both genders have issues that affect them*. And I generally don't identify as an ifeminist on MRA blogs and I generally don't identify as a MRA on ifeminist blogs as it's usually not relevant to the topic at hand. But I do comment in both kinds of blogs.
*and I don't agree with everything in both movements(who actually does?)
I'm lazy to goo into details, as Lady Catherine did a great job (as usual Katrin!).
ReplyDeleteI'll just say that the post is based on generalizing the entire MRA movement out of the bitter-teenagers who are the loudest.
That would be like me writing an article on feminism, and basing it entirely around the snarky comments by cynical teenagers on feministing, or on radical feminist blogs such as "rage against the manchine"... Blog which outright profess hatred of men.
I'll assume you were simply intellectually lazy when writing the post, and not intellectually dishonest. That is, I will assume you simply didn't take the time to get a broad view of the entire movement, and went off of first impressions.
Seeing that we all do this, and that its basic human nature to be lazy when observing new phenomenon, I will not task you with it too harshly.
I recommend reading something like the counter-feminist or a-voice-for-men if you want to get a broader stroke of the MRA. Misogyny there is highly frowned upon, and the level of discourse is highly intellectual (avoiceformen isn't always intellectual, but always anti-misogyny).
Actually most of what I said in this post came from reading the websites and blogs and watching the youtube videos of mostly middle aged men.
ReplyDeleteI reject your assertion I was lazy. I have read through hundreds of blogs and websites, watched hundreds of youtube videos, and followed what links were provided, I have done as much background reading as is possible. No laziness here in the slightest. Certainly not my first impressions of the movement.
"I recommend reading something like the counter-feminist or a-voice-for-men if you want to get a broader stroke of the MRA."
I have read both, and my opinion of those contributed to this post.
Your claim that neither are sexist is highly amusing to me.
Instead of accusing me of random baseless rubbish you could address the points I make. Or is it easier to get indignant and stamp your feet?
"Your claim that neither are sexist is highly amusing to me."
ReplyDeleteI've never used the word sexism nor even touched upon the problem, as your first point was on misogyny. Taking into account that I've never used the word sexism, its hard to see how I would be making claims on something without ever mentioning it.
The concepts of misogyny and sexism even though related do not entirely overlap. I am but merely taking your assertions one at a time, and your first assertion was regarding misogyny.
Even though I believe it is possible for even a man to tell what misogyny is, I do think that would be arrogant of me to do, so I ask women's council before making up my mind.
This is where my sister most often comes in, and frequently my female friends as well. We do not always agree on what website/article is misogynistic, but we tend to agree in I'd say 90% of cases (I'm being modest for sake of total honesty).
Not a single woman I've tasked with council has deemed counter-feminist to be misogynistic, and merely a few have tasked a-voice-for-men to be.
Furthermore, to this point... Both publications prominently feature female authors as either contributors and/or supporters.
Fidelbogen (of counter-feminist fame) does go out of his way to point out that misogyny is not only stupid, but impractical, while at the same time pointing out that the number one group they should appeal to is female counter-feminists, female ex-feminists, mothers and others.
He often sneers at the misogynistic wing of the MRA as "unsophisticated cannon fodder" (my paraphrasing).
That goes in the face of the idea that MRA are hostile to the idea of women taking leadership roles in their movement.
Especially many claim that the only chance the movement has of succeeding is if it shows that feminism hurts women, and if it enough women are at leadership positions.
Many men in the movement consider Christina Hoff Sommers to be an intellectual (proxy) leader of the movement, and some go so far as to refer to her as Saint Christina (re: Bernard Chapin).
I'd implore you to interview Kathrin (she posted the comment above as "lady catherine"), if she believes that Paul Elam or Fidelbogen are misogynistic or hostile to women.
Again, that you missed any of these things does not make me think foul of you, but merely human. Its basic human nature to ignore evidence that does not fit our beliefs, and subjectively (with bias) interpret most evidence to fit what we already believe.
Thank you.
"I've never used the word sexism nor even touched upon the problem, as your first point was on misogyny. "
ReplyDelete"Misogyny there is highly frowned upon..."
Misogyny is sexism.
"Even though I believe it is possible for even a man to tell what misogyny is, I do think that would be arrogant of me to do, so I ask women's council before making up my mind. "
Women are often sexist towards women themselves...
"I'd implore you to interview Kathrin (she posted the comment above as "lady catherine"), if she believes that Paul Elam or Fidelbogen are misogynistic or hostile to women. "
That is irrelevant.
"Again, that you missed any of these things does not make me think foul of you, but merely human."
When describing a political movement, one is not going to be describing every single person in the politica movement at all times. As people are quite varied. That does not detract from the fact my original sums up the MRA quite well. I am missing no evidence. Bernard chapin is a sexist pig, whether or not he happens to one of the MRAs that is ok with women in leadership roles or not. Paul elam is a good example of another sexist pig.
Honestly you threw around more rubbish that really doesn't matter. Women you know don't think it is sexist? So what?
I have however lost a lot of interest in discussing the MRA as they are largely irrelevant to my life and political views.
""Misogyny is sexism.""
ReplyDeleteI just tried half a dozen thesauruses, and none seem to back up this claim.
- Sexism is the belief that one gender is superior to another.
- Misogyny/Misandry is the hatred of one gender.
I will acknowledge misogyny sometimes leads to sexism, and sometimes sexism leads to misogyny.
"[on other women's assessment of misogyny] That is irrelevant."
I apologize, but I merely discovered your blog hours ago. Even though you're an obviously well-educated and thoughtful person, you can't expect me to find your opinion more relevant that all the dictionaries, encyclopedias as well as the women I most admire, and including the women I've loved my entire life?
""When describing a political movement, one is not going to be describing every single person in the politica movement at all times.""
True.
"That does not detract from the fact my original sums up the MRA quite well. "
How does one define "quite well"? Is it "40%" is it "50%". Is it maybe "80%". And if so, how did you measure the veracity of your statement for a movement that has tens of thousands of individual thoughts and ideas and members? That would have required personally judging and measuring the "misogynistic-ness" of a good 4000 pieces on a scientific scale of misogynistic criteria.
How are you sure that your sampling was scientific and representative? For example, I was shocked at the "bitter middle-aged guys' videos" remark you made, because personally (and I've followed them for years), I've been drowning in watching videos from cynical and bitter 20-somethings and even teenagers.
Both of us have somehow stumbled upon the opposite sample while looking at the same phenomenon.
"I apologize, but I merely discovered your blog hours ago. Even though you're an obviously well-educated and thoughtful person, you can't expect me to find your opinion more relevant that all the dictionaries, encyclopedias as well as the women I most admire, and including the women I've loved my entire life?"
ReplyDeleteMisogyny is sexism towards women.
Noun 1. misogynist - a misanthrope who dislikes women in particular
misogynist
adjective
chauvinist, sexist, patriarchal misogynist attitudes
noun
woman-hater, male chauvinist, anti-feminist, MCP (informal), male chauvinist pig (informal), male supremacist
I don't know what crazy dictionaries you are reading.
"I've been drowning in watching videos from cynical and bitter 20-somethings and even teenagers."
I have never interacted or viewed the material of a teenage MRA.
"That would have required personally judging and measuring the "misogynistic-ness" "
Yup my political views are subjective. Just like everybody elses.
""I don't know what crazy dictionaries you are reading.""
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't call the first 6 thesauruses google gave me as being "crazy". That one has to go out of their way and dig deep to find a dictionary that includes this synonym amongst many displays that its a rare view, limited to a minority.
I see where you're going with your point. But you're asking me to declare entire dictionaries, family members and women I respect as crazy and/or their perspectives as unfitting.
Personally, I start questioning a belief I hold, if I have to go out of my way and invest a lot of effort to find ways to make facts fit my belief.
"""Yup my political views are subjective. Just like everybody elses. """
Ok, so you do admit your negative assessment of an entire group of disjointed people is entirely subjective?
That's especially worrying because there is no one "men's movement" or one "mrm". There are maybe 30-40-50 under-currents and they are all very different from one another.
You do admit subjectively judging a random sampling and then generalizing it over the entire diverse population. If I'm not mistaking this is how stereotypes are formed. In other words, the same process if you were to apply it to an ethnicity would be called racism.
My question. Why should (and should I) take your word over say Lady Catherine's?
"That one has to go out of their way and dig deep to find a dictionary that includes this synonym amongst many displays that its a rare view, limited to a minority."
ReplyDeleteIt was the first one I looked in. I have also never viewed any dictionary that doesn't include it. Please provide your evidence or shut up about it. I am sick of people spewing their sexism at me and being unable to support it.
"In other words, the same process if you were to apply it to an ethnicity would be called racism."
Strawman.
"My question. Why should (and should I) take your word over say Lady Catherine's? "
Everybody has a subjective opinion. I don't care if you don't think the MRA is sexist in the extreme.
Just look at my blog, any movement that encourages calling women "cunts" and non MRA men "manginas" is sexist, disgusting and immature. If you support that, you are also disgusting, sexist and immature.
Bernerd chapin is one such frontman in the movement that encourages this.
I could write a whole essay on chapins sexism. He finds it fine to refer to women as sloppy seconds. He doesn't think women should have sexual freedom. He thinks if a woman has a sexual history she is obligated to jump on his dick if dating him.
He is old school sexist and paints it as justified. I get a few good chuckles from his self righteous indignation.
He spent one video whining about how a woman didn't pay her "$3" share of the taxi ride. How cheap. I am female and have covered that much and more of a taxi ride for men and women.
""Please provide your evidence or shut up about it. ""
ReplyDeleteGoogle.com - thesaurus. Insert misogyny in any of the first ones you get. That's what I did. No sexism in the ones google gave me. I didn't go past 6.
"""In other words, the same process if you were to apply it to an ethnicity would be called racism."
""Strawman.""
A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]
I never substituted any of your claims. You claimed that MRAs in general were sexist/misogynist. I refuted that they're sexist/misogynist in general. Where did I substitute any of your claims?
What I did point out is that you painting an entire diverse group with a broad-stroke is morally equivalent to how some forms of racism work, in that it paints certain traits as being characteristic of a very diverse group. This isn't replacing your claim, this is judging the morality of the logic you use to arrive at stereotypes for groups.
I say the same thing to MRA who demonize the entire feminist movement as if it were one monolithic group. You will see lady catherine does the same, and she features blogs from both moderate feminists and moderate MRAs.
"""Just look at my blog, any movement that encourages calling women "cunts" and non MRA men "manginas" is sexist, disgusting and immature."""
True. Except that such a movement doesn't exist.
There is an MRA movement, in which there are tens of thousands of individuals, and some do that. There is no "concrete, definable movement" for it to encourage people to do anything. There is no consensus on pretty much anything at this point.
Lady Catherine has labeled herself an MRA and she most definetely does not support those things. I do not label myself MRA, but I don't support those who do those things either.
""Bernerd chapin is one such frontman in the movement that encourages this.""
This is basically libel as I have never seen Bernard use the C word.
""He doesn't think women should have sexual freedom.""
Nope. He likes to laugh at women who believe that sexual freedom has no consequences. Not viewing an action as being milk&honey ideal, does not mean you disapprove of the action. You're just pointing out its not all milk&honey.
I personally disagree with him and especially his style (mocking tone and such), but at the same time, I don't believe that makes him a sexist to point out what he believes to be a fallacy. No more than it makes any of the female dating authors who have the same belief sexist or misogynist.
""He thinks if a woman has a sexual history she is obligated to jump on his dick if dating him.""
He's never said such a thing. Now that is a strawman ;)
"He spent one video whining about how a woman didn't pay her "$3" share of the taxi ride.Ќ
So him pointing out examples about a woman being a sexist, makes him a sexist? By that logic you pointing out examples about bernard makes you a sexist. And me now pointing out examples about you makes me a sexist :) We're all sexists, yaaaaaay :)
"""Bernerd chapin is one such frontman in the movement that encourages this."""
ReplyDeleteEven if he were (which he's not). How does that make it a "movement encouraging of calling women c****"?
Andrea Dworkin was one frontwoman of feminism, and so were other radical feminist.
I wouldn't use them to say that "feminism encourages the castration of men and shooting 90% of the male population" ==> wouldn't this be dishonest? Wouldn't I be dishonest if I attempted to make such a claim?
How is not an equally dishonest claim to say that "the men's movement encourages calling women c****"?
"So him pointing out examples about a woman being a sexist, makes him a sexist? "
ReplyDeletePoint me to where I said that. More strawmanning. Argh.
Also there is no such thing as sexism towards men, that is just absurd.
"He's never said such a thing. Now that is a strawman ;)"
Actually he said exactly that. He made gestures to his lap and said "Get on!" In regards to a woman who has slept with multiple partners. Have you even watched his videos?
"Nope. He likes to laugh at women who believe that sexual freedom has no consequences. Not viewing an action as being milk&honey ideal, does not mean you disapprove of the action."
Yup. he sure does express disapproval at a woman having sexual freedom. Referring to them as "sloppy seconds" is one such occassion.
"This is basically libel as I have never seen Bernard use the C word."
you are right he hasn't. However he does encourage men to insult women who disagree with them and to use sexist slurs. What is the difference?
"True. Except that such a movement doesn't exist. "
I guess agree to disagree there.
"I wouldn't use them to say that "feminism encourages the castration of men and shooting 90% of the male population" ==> wouldn't this be dishonest? "
I can only judge a movement upon what the movement states as its goals. Having looked through the goals of places such as a voice for men. I have realised it is sexist.
from www.dictionary.com
ReplyDeletemi·sog·y·ny
/mɪˈsɒdʒəni, maɪ-/ Show Spelled[mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-] Show IPA
–noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.
Seriously provide me one example of where a dictionary doesn't define it as sexism towards women.
And wiki...
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny
What's really happening is an organic reaction against feminism. This "reaction" is happening clear across the board, throughout a broad demographic, and it is quite naive and simplistic to speak of this as a "movement". Since when was the whole wide world a "movement"? And since when did the whole wide world have a goal, other than to keep turning? In other words, since when did LIFE have a goal, other than to continue living?
ReplyDeleteLike I said, it is organic.
So, if you are fixated on "MRAs" or "the men's movement" or any such thing, then you are missing the forest for the trees.
In reality, there IS NO MEN'S MOVEMENT . . and never has been.
You need to stop chasing shadows. ;)
Sorry none of your first paragraph makes sense to me. It doesn't appear to be relevant at all. And the whole world is not a movement sure, but if you think the mrm has engulfed the whole world you are a bit optimistic.
ReplyDeleteFeminism was organic also. Are you going to say it wasn't a movement either?
If so we just have different definitions of what constitutes a movement and the disagreement here is purely linguistics rather than political.
"but if you think the mrm has engulfed the whole world you are a bit optimistic."
ReplyDeletePay attention. There is no "MRM".
That is only an acronym. Only a label.
Therefore, it has indeed not "engulfed the world." In that, you speak truly. How can an acronym or a label engulf the world?
So again, stop chasing shadows.
You can say there is no mrm however I do not agree.
ReplyDeleteIt can't engulf the whole world that is the whole point...
I don't care what you want to call this mens rights activism.
Arguing about labels is boring.
Address what I was actually talking about.
To be clear
ReplyDelete"but if you think the mrm has engulfed the whole world you are a bit optimistic."
I was talking about what I refer to as the mrm and you refer to as a reaction. It is abit optimistic to say it has engulfed the world either as a reaction a movement or a teacup for all I care about what you want to call it.